JBL L-350 VS> K HORNS

[DrWho]

I'm very surpised.I would'nt be so surprised if I was on just a general hi-fi forum,but being on the Klipscg forum,I'm not sure why I've only getting responses to my post stating that the flag ship of Klipsch spkrs. only have inferior components.If I was'nt familiar w/ Klipsch & obviously a fan of the spkr.,If I read the responses to the K Horns,I would think to stay way away from the spkr.What does everyone think.Thanks,Tim.

Since the car analogy keeps coming up...

Take a Lotus Exige versus any muscle car. The Exige is only pushing 200 some horsepower, but you'll easily be putting down 800+ from the muscle car.

However, that Exige is going to smoke any muscle car on a real race track...simply because it's putting out the same power-to-weight ratio, but the total weight of the car is thousands of pounds lighter.

Is the Exige automatically inferior because its engine doesn't put out the same raw horsepower? I wouldn't think so. Would the Exige be better with a 50,000,000 horespower engine that weighed and cost the same amount? Absolutely, but that doesn't invalidate the performance of the 200hp motor in that chassis.

Horns are like making your car lighter....the engine (or speaker) doesn't have to work as hard to achieve the same performance. So when targetting a specific price point, it only makes sense to make the driver just good enough to take full advantage of the chassis (horn).

[Chris A]

...Now there is a pr. of JBL L-350 spkrs.(item # 10282187039 on Ebay).They are supposidly L-300 w/ an extra 15" woofer.The JBL L-300 seem to have a huge following.My question is do any of you have an opinion on how the JBL L-350's would stack up against the K Horns...

Since I haven't seen anyone reply with any knowledge of the JBLs--I'd say, go for it, and tell us what you find.

Chris

[ZAKO]

Not only is amp power cheap,, its distortion will be lower than the speaker.. As PWK stated,, "if it moves it distorts." No matter if its a direct radiater or horn. Clean effortless sound can be had if the components are well designed.

[colterphoto1]

The more inefficient speaker will suffer from 'power compression' which is the driver's reduction in dynamics at higher temperatures.

I disagree with the Jubilee comments (of course you know I'm a big fan of Klipsch pro speakers and live sound so take that into consideration).

I also think that the Klipschorn is a fine speaker for the money as it stands. My 1972's have new networks and that's the only modification needed in my book. For many of us it's a matter of economic benefits. Some of the various modifications are untested and fairly expensive even for a hi-fi collector such as myself. Remember that loudspeaker manufacturers must compete in the marketplace and price points must be adhered to. The designer usually does not have an unlimited budget to create the 'ultimate loudspeaker' in most cases.

Personally I like the way that Klipsch builds them and my collection stays pretty true to the originals.

I'd be interested in comments from owners of JBL and Klipsch speakers.

Michael

[tigerwoodKhorns]

MCM's?

LOL. That should do it.

[ZAKO]

I have both JBL and Klipsch speakers,,, I hold JBL to a higher standard,, They design and make there own drivers, Not too many Klipsch products do that.

[Marvel]

I'd be interested in comments from owners of JBL and Klipsch speakers.

Ok, Michael,

I have JBL 4311s, an almost identical size to the Heresy, and I have Heresy IIs. I have often said that I felt the Heresy was about the same but louder. The Heresies are much more efficient. The JBLs have a lower freq. response, but they are also completely DR. The 5 inch mid on the 4311s tend to break up, but I don't know that I have usually driven them hard enough to notice. So it isn't a fair comparison to the SUMMIT, the L-300 which has a mid and tweeter that are compression drivers.The 4311s were also designed as a studio monitor, the prof. version of the L-100 Century, JBLs most popular speaker ever.

The L-300 is considered to be an exceptional speaker. I kinda wish I had a pair.I think the L-350 custom only has the addition of a second 15 inch woofer. It still isn't as efficient as a fully horn loaded system. However, two 15s on a side will rock the house.

Bruce

[Chris A]

...I'm critical of the way Klipsch as a company has abandoned the advancement of the state-of-the-art of designing fully horn-loaded loudspeakers. If the Jubilee really is that great, then why doesn't Klipsch put it in their product line up, one step up from the Khorn? I think this is exactly what they should do. I strongly believe that this is a complex subject, but one that is driven mostly by buyer behavior, not Klipsch Corp. intentions. I also agree with Mike, above-- if Klipsch really marketed the Jube as a home product, the price would clearly triple, but then again, "audiophile" pundits wouldn't show up to the party to help sell them to a uneducated public.

When I said digital processing, I was mostly talking about the equalization needed. Can you think of another well-known speaker that needs equalization to make it sound right? I can, I'm just not going to say it here. It's not how PWK EVER designed a speaker. Well, most people fasten on EQ, but they never talk about distortion (and PWK made more than a convincing argument about efficiency and low distortion). There really isn't any compensation for distortion, while there is compensation for EQ and time alignment. But you've already heard all about that.

It's not how WE buy them that's the problem, I agree, it's a great way to buy. It's how so many others are not able to buy them that is the problem. You seen so concerned about this subject, but my question is "why?" As a retailer once said -- "an educated consumer is our best customer..."

Good post Mike, maybe we should start another thread. But I'm scared! Don't be scared - you're a big guy-- you'll survive. Ignore the stuff that doesn't matter here.

[sheltie dave]

I have KHorns and have the luxury of having one of the top tier JBL collectors in the country here in St. Louis. I have recently heard the L300s and I listen to my Klipsch every day. I also am forced to listen to Carl's system every time I go over to his house(KHorns with ALK crossovers, Klappenhorns, Altec 902 drivers and other perverse mods.) I get to listen to Maron's KHorns now and then, with TAD woofs, various JBL middrivers thru Smithhorns, and varied tweets with smaller Smithhorns, all going through active Pioneer crossovers.

The L300s have a better bass voicing and balance. They manage to hold their voicing for longer than the KHorns as you turn both up in volume, mainly because they are having an easier fight in integrating all three speakers. The mutant L350s will end up being close or identical to the Westlake/Aupsberger twin woofer designs, which have been used as playback studio monitors in quite a few gigantic recording studios.

On the Khorns and Jubilees, Klipsch does not produce their own drivers. They do outsource production, either to Eminence for their woofers, and various other companies for the mids/tweets. Being one of the largest speaker companies around and having a commanding economy of scale to use in bargaining, I would peg all their drivers for the above speakers being sourced for under $125 a pop. For their Heritage speakers, Klipsch drops tremendous amounts of money on their enclosures and personnel relative to the driver costs, and especially when compared to most other companies. Their genius lies in the speaker designs, not their drivers.

The Khorn specifically has not seen major mods since about 1963(disregarding last year's change to 1" plywood for the enclosure.) Same bass bin, a shift from the cast lenses to composite necessitated by cost control, incremental improvements in crossover design driven by aneochic chamber testing, and tightened QA on the mid and tweet drivers. I have heard the TAD woofers dropped in the bass bins, and they are superlative. The 2" TAD mid driver is also brilliant, but there is no way my wallet will support this mod. I thought about talking to Al about a set of midhorns, but went with the Pioneer D23 active crossover as my first mod. It seems to be workig out brilliantly, but the road has not been completely travelled yet.

I would put the KHorn and the L350 as equals with the Pioneer crossover in the mix. I finally have enough control to shape the KHorn sound to a more bass balanced presentation. Don't get me wrong - the KHorn puts out prodigious bass, but it is overwhelmed by the more efficient mid and tweet. There are three woofers that are better than the Eminence in a KHorn that I know about, which means ther probably are five to ten that will do a better job. The same can apply to the mid and tweet, and then you have the decent crossover and the time alignment issue. Get all these resolved, and the KHorn can jump from incredible to stellar performance. Get a good Westlake/Aupsberger/L350, and you have a turnkey incredible speaker. The Khorn needs to be massaged to truly give its best. It is incredible to start, but it can be much more.

[Marvel]

Excellent descriptions, Dave. Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I've always wanted one of the larger JBL systems, but they are harder to come by and more expensive. I have always drooled over the L-300 or L-220. Either would simply smoke my 4311s.

Bruce

[tim3]

Thanks Bob for chiming in.I'm afraid to even ask you any more ?'s because I know I drive you & A lot of people on the forum crazy(with good reason)I guess the best & only way to explain it is,with my set up,on occasion,maybe mostly when I'm drinking,I love to crank up my R&R.Having 2 Bryston 4B's bridged,I can still turn up the volume untill the distortion lights start to flicker.What I want is when those occasions come up is to be able to turn up the volume without the distortion lights come on & to be able to say this is enough,I can't stand to turn up the volume any more.What I'm going to do is to go to Radio Shack & get a db. reader,so when I get into one of my moods to really crank up the music until the distortion lights start to flicker I can let all you know what I'm getting for a db. reading.Maybe that will give you all some idea of what I'm looking for.I can't thank you all enough for taking the time to respond to my post.I know I must frustrate A lot of you,but I guess that's what begginers do.Again thank you all so much for putting up w/ me.Tim.

[ZAKO]

Excellent Dave,,, I want to add,,, As I said,,I hold JBL to a higher standard (TAD too) JBL did some thing extra ordinary.. It was in the development of a new 15" woofer and a extra ordinary HF driver,,, The 15" woofer is the 1500 AL & 1501 AL there is nothing like it in this world achieving the lowest distortion for a woofer,,,,Mike Benze made a statement some time back,, "No improvements have been made in woofer design,,, Well he,s young and not well informed on speaker driver design... The 1500AL Is the most unique woofer ever designed to lower motional distortion without having to use a bass horn... I,m not going to go into details on its structure here,,,,, The High frequency driver JBL 476 Be is also unique surpassing the TAD 4001 and 4002 JBL at this time also developed another driver 435 Be a smaller unit plus a variant 2435 Be with a different back chamber,,All to lower distortion. The cost of these units are very high,,,even taxing my wallet. What has this got to do with the JBL L 300 or the L 350 varient,,, the when compared to the new Speaker and drivers are night and day in sonic clarity,,, I,ve stated earlier here that I didnt like the top end of the Delgado varient of the Jubilee,, I still dont,, Not as true to fidelity in every way,,, I compaire it to a truck where as the JBL Everest or K2 or Everest II are the highspeed performance car. Not too many people on this forum even are aware of the advancement in driver design going on.. I,ve tried to incorperate some of it into my old system, BUT its not even close to what is going on,,,Even surpassing the Jubilee ( a super variant of the Jubilee),,, Delgado is going to have alot of catching up to do and its not enough to look into the TAD linage. The JBL units are that much better,, I might not live long enough to hear all of the new advancements being achieved by JBL and TAD,, But keep your eyes and your golden ears open,,You wont be disapointed...

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Woofer technology has made it a long way. My speakers can be putting out a lot of bass and you cannot even see the woofers moving. The midrange drivers have no surrounds and work as a piston. You can stand on the raw cone and not crush it (I have not tried this so don't ask). Wrap your knuckles on the cabinets and it feels like striking cement, no resonance. Kind of silly for anyone to claim that technology is standing still.

Tim,

I have a pair of Brytston 7B ST's which are essentialy the 4B's bridged. I never came close to clipping them, ever. You probably need to start in teh subwoofer forum if you like that kind of SPL. Get that dialed in and then look at really efficient horns. Or get the MCM's. They can do what you want if you have the room. I'd recommend a completely different direction or you will not be able to enjoy this hobby in years to come as you lose your hearing.

[Marvel]

The JBL units are that much better,, I might not live long enough to hear all of the new advancements being achieved by JBL and TAD,, But keep your eyes and your golden ears open,,You wont be disapointed...

I agree, Maron. The problem, as even you stated, is the cost. Even the high end Klipsch is mostly out of my range. That's why we are tweakers...[*-)]

Bruce

[JJkizak]

All we need now is technology to repair our very old and diminished hearing skills, mine being cutoff at 12khz. And how do we know if our ears themselves are not causing distortions?

JJK

[PrestonTom]

Well, Tim has just mentioned that he clips a Bryston playing into horn loaded cabinets. That has got to be loud, very loud!

At this point the more important issue is that this guy is destroying his hearing.

You really need need to reconsider your listening habits, hearing loss is not reversible.

-Tom

[Don Richard]

When I said digital processing, I was mostly talking about the equalization needed. Can you think of another well-known speaker that needs equalization to make it sound right? I can, I'm just not going to say it here. It's not how PWK EVER designed a speaker.

Any speaker using constant directivity horns must use EQ to correct top octave response and phase. Nearly all speakers, particularly the smaller ones, built for home use employ EQ in their passive network to correct response and/or phase. All bi-ampable pro concert systems use EQ "tunings" for frequency response and phase correction. Loudspeaker controllers such as the DBX Driverack series have such "preset tunings" for various makes of loudspeakers. Powered speakers are often delay and frequency response corrected "inside the box".

I suppose the question should be 'What modern loudspeaker doesn't use EQ (passive or active) to make it sound right?'

[ClaudeJ1]

MCM's?

LOL. That should do it.

See my Avatar. It does!!

[Marvel]

Claude,

Where are the input jacks/binding posts on the MWM bins? Looking at the drawings, there isn't a splitter of any kind at the back, is there (the wedge that is in the LS and Belle)?

Bruce

[ClaudeJ1]

No. Just the indent for the metal in the center for the binding posts/banana plug. The brute force overrides that little bump inside anyhow, LOL.