Hybrid Trachorn

[DrWho]

The difference between Joe and Mike K is that Mike K would discover the problem wasn't in the speaker he was blaiming.

[ZAKO]

Mike you need to get a life,,, Find a girl,,, and,,,,,,

[sheltie dave]

Mike, you are wrong. The difference between Joe and Mike K is that Joe would spend thirty years hand winding air core transformers, building his own crossovers, testing various drivers and lenses in an aneochic chamber on a weekly basis and hand plotting the results, saving all his research, and using custom drivers and horns to create the sound he wanted. Mike K would talk to the people who did all this research, formulate his own opinions, test countless drivers and horns, and keep only the best he heard for his applications. Gee, this is almost exactly the case!

It so happens that there is a direct link between Mike and Joe, and that the group of stereo fools in that cabal have over 200 years of KHorn testing and modding to get where they want to be. We happen to be the third generation of that project, and the improvements keep coming. If the tophat isn't going to cut it in a specific application and the cost-benefit analysis indicates a thumbs down or the need for further specific testing, it is better to run with a proven success than a suspected low performer . Come to think of it, the KHorn tophat is a good example of accepting good performance that guarantees a profit.

Your statement is a good example of speaking about a situation you know less than 10% about, but feel free to continue....

[BEC]

GREG,,,, Thats Klemintovich,s Jube bass (oak) bin with a martinelli horn. Mike had the Jube top horn on for only a half hour,, It was so bad sounding he put on his ol Martinelli horn,,,, He thinks DSP EQ stinks,,(his words not mine) If you have to do that much to a driver some thing is wrong,,(his words) Every driver need some compensation but the 69 seems to be the worse of the lot. I know have the Top horn from his Jube (sent to me last week) to see what the Big lie is about,,,Looks like a bigass square conacle to me with a rounded mouth lip,,dont look tracktrix,,, will back engineer that one,, Will take it down to CID anechoic chamber next month and run some charts... DSP is OK if the unit is low distortion,,, Ive never seen any EV product test low in that catagory..

Maron,

Isn't this the horn that Mike K got with his Jubilees?

[Blvdre]

Tom,

I'm running fairly new GPA 902's w/ trachorn and passives. I don't know squat about filter design, so had to enlist the help of software to get me in the ballpark. Before the trachorn, I was running the 902 with a 511. Tried a 1st-order crossed at 600Hz and found the 902 would distort if pushed, same as John A's experience. Built up some of Al's AP12's crossed at 700Hz, distortion gone. Added an RC contour based on an RTA plot of the 902/511 response (I found this somewhere on the forum, thanks to whoever posted that). Played around with the C a bit to dial it in, sounded nice. I'm now running the 902 w/the trachorn, same x-over; sounds better, although a bit less high-end energy, as compared to the 902/511 combo, but much more balanced sound (the 511 sounds a bit thin to me). Definitely as much treble energy as my LaScalas run stock. I may play around a bit more w/the contour, but am also curious to try three-way.All of my listening is done on-axis, don't care so much about off-axis response.

[DrWho]

Mike, you are wrong. The difference between Joe and Mike K is that Joe would spend thirty years hand winding air core transformers, building his own crossovers, testing various drivers and lenses in an aneochic chamber on a weekly basis and hand plotting the results, saving all his research, and using custom drivers and horns to create the sound he wanted. Mike K would talk to the people who did all this research, formulate his own opinions, test countless drivers and horns, and keep only the best he heard for his applications. Gee, this is almost exactly the case!

I don't see how that changes my point.

[mikebse2a3]

I measure my speakers every day when I sit down and listen to music.

Greg

And some people know it's wise to measure and listen since either alone can lead to the wrong conclusions! Heck I hear some people like turning a Lascala LF section backwards into a corner and think a Bose 901 is an accurate speaker! Yep if I was them I wouldn't want to measure things either because it might burst some bubbles while opening their eyes.

mike tn

[sheltie dave]

Mike, your "point" is the Jubilees are a perfect type of speaker that have nothing wrong with them, so the "poor" sound in Mike's house is probably either faulty setup, faulty equipment, or operator incompetence, which can easily be pinpointed by a few facile measurements, or overcome with a few grand in room preps.

It looks like Mike corrected his idiocy by reinstalling his proven KHorn modified tophat, which would lead to the second and more important thesis - why the Martinellis sound better than the Jub tractix. Rather than jumping on someone for being an idiot or incompetent, it often is better to learn how to ask the leading question in a manner that invites discussion rather than insults.

Half an hour might seem like a precipitous rush to a decision, but Mike is an incredible pianist who knows audio reproduction as few can imagine. To a music savant, especially a pianist, a speaker is either right or it's out the door. The Jub bass bins are still there, the tractix are out, going to get measured and hopefully dialed in. Just like a guitarist talking about the action of a Gibson, Fender, or National(ouch!) there is a schwang for speakers.

[DrWho]

It so happens that there is a direct link
between Mike and Joe, and that the group of stereo fools in that cabal
have over 200 years of KHorn testing and modding to get where they want
to be.

Not to keep harping on the same example since
it's certainly not the whole story, but how in the world does 200 years
of experience seem
to have no grasp on the speaker/room interaction and the
need to change acoustic treatment with changes in polar/power response?
This is super easy basics and the implications have been huge in
my sheep-proclaimed limited experience.

Let's see....take a
speaker that throws way more low mids in the room, tune the acoustics
for a pleasing tonal balance, and now swap in a speaker that throws
equal amounts of highs and lows into the same room. I've been there
and it always sounds nasty bright as all get out. It can be mitigated
slightly with xover changes, but really it doesn't sound right until
the room's power response compliments the speaker's power
response....and I've found it to be ideal when that is achieved with a
netural on-axis response.

Now I could go on and quote all sorts of literature that supports my
experiences, but then suddenly I need to get out of theory world and
gain some real experience??? How is that not totally ignoring all the
listening that spurred that research in the first place....and also
ignoring the experience of those authors that felt compelled enough to
write about it?

You're right, I don't know enough about the situation to pinpoint
all the problems, but I do know of a lot of great sounding speakers
that have sounded awful when implemented improperly. However, I have
enough experience with the K402 and Martinelli horns to know that the
K402 is easily in the same class (if not actually better). But hey, I'm
one of the unexperienced ones with more than 30 minutes of listening... [^o)]

[DrWho]

I never said the Jubilee is perfect. I would be more than happy to
list everything I don't like, but I don't think any of that could even
come close to explaining Mike K's reactions....especially in light of
all the Martinelli horns I've heard. Ironically, my biggest issues are
with the bass bin.

Also, I never said the acoustic treatment
was the answer to all the problems. I used it as a single example to
show how a sheep-proclaimed expert wasn't implementing due process.
There is no way in heck anyone can say Mike K experienced the full
potential of the K402. The room acoustics issue is just one blatantly
obvious example that I happen to have experienced personally quite
often. It really begs the question, how many other integration points
were screwed up? I mean, the dude is equally an expert in everything
audio, right?

Btw, my issue with the 30 minutes has nothing to
do with how long he sat there listening. I'll usually form most (not all) of my
impression within a single song (if it's the right song). The issue is
how much time was spent making it better...or rather how no time was
spent before he got "very angry".

[sheltie dave]

Mike, get married.

Watch your room engineering designs be limited to "what you got is what will be, forever."

Mike has sent the horns to get dialed in via a trusted source. He has spent a good deal more than most Jub owners to get what he wants, and now is spending even more. He has a grasp of the super easy basics, and also knows pleasing the wife is even more important than his satisfaction, something you might still be working towards.

For a gentleman who spent a good deal of money to reasearch and write the only biography of PWK, it seems you don't find much redeeming in his purchase of a set of Golden Jubilees and his quest to make them the outstanding speakers he wants.

[mark1101]

Why is an expert sending his horns OUT to get dialed IN? Does he expect them to sound right in his room after they are adjusted somewhere else? This does not sound like an expert at all, sounds like someone who doesn't know HOW to adjust them properly himself in his own room or is not capable. You have given no good techincal information on the issue at hand...........just that a few guys with supposedly good ears can't seem to figure out how to get a known good speaker to sound right, have gotten frustrated, and now need to consult someone for HELP.

You could have just asked on this forum and I'm sure some of the 402 owners would have offered help to get them to sound right.

[BEC]

Well I am confused. As far as I know, Mike K does not have the K-402 horn. He does not have standard factory Jubilees. He has Golden Jubilees. Here is a picture he sent me of the horn he got with the Golden Jubilees.

Bob

[mark1101]

Is this horn in the picture a 403?

[mikebse2a3]

Why is an expert sending his horns OUT to get dialed IN? Does he expect them to sound right in his room after they are adjusted somewhere else? This does not sound like an expert at all, sounds like someone who doesn't know HOW to adjust them properly himself in his own room or is not capable. You have given no good techincal information on the issue at hand...........just that a few guys with supposedly good ears can't seem to figure out how to get a known good speaker to sound right, have gotten frustrated, and now need to consult someone for HELP.

You could have just asked on this forum and I'm sure some of the 402 owners would have offered help to get them to sound right.

Mark that is just to logical!

It's clearly obvious there was no interest in understanding or learning how to get the best from the Jub/K402. 30 minutes of listening[bs]

The sad thing is I believe most jubilee owners would enjoy hearing of others trying different horns and such because that is a fun part of this hobby.

mike tn

[capo72]

Can you guys take this bickering back to the Jubilee thread? I thought we had a good thread going on the trachorns. Now it's turning into another [bs] Jube thread.

Jeremy

[mikebse2a3]

GREG,,,, Thats Klemintovich,s Jube bass (oak) bin with a martinelli horn. Mike had the Jube top horn on for only a half hour,, It was so bad sounding he put on his ol Martinelli horn,,,, He thinks DSP EQ stinks,,(his words not mine) If you have to do that much to a driver some thing is wrong,,(his words) Every driver need some compensation but the 69 seems to be the worse of the lot. I know have the Top horn from his Jube (sent to me last week) to see what the Big lie is about,,,Looks like a bigass square conacle to me with a rounded mouth lip,,dont look tracktrix,,, will back engineer that one,, Will take it down to CID anechoic chamber next month and run some charts... DSP is OK if the unit is low distortion,,, Ive never seen any EV product test low in that catagory..

So Maron what horn and driver do you actually have? How was the DSP setup arrived at? No real information in the above post as it reads!

Also, have you actually used and tested the EV DX38 because that statement is pure [bs] based on my 2 years experience with it in multiple situations.

Your post always seem full of innuendo with very little actual facts.

mike tn

[mikebse2a3]

Can you guys take this bickering back to the Jubilee thread? I thought we had a good thread going on the trachorns. Now it's turning into another Jube thread.

Jeremy

I agree Jeremy and apologize to you, the thread starter and others interested in this thread (as I was). It's just really hard to walk away from posting when this [bs] starts up.

mike tn

[bodcaw boy]

IF (and this is a big IF) that is mike k holding the hf horn of his golden jubilees, then mike k does not have a k-402. he has a k-403; the original horn that paul k wanted for the jub. and that horn will more than likely not have a k-69. the k-69 has a 2" exit and the 403 has a 1.4" throat. if you put a k-69 on the 403, it will more than likely have a couple notches in the freq response and some good ole distortion. we had spec'd a driver to use for the 403 when the jub was headed for production.

also one other thing, klipsch does not produce a k-403 horn.

take care,

roy

[ZAKO]

Mikebse,, It seems that DRWHO is the one doing the armchair innuendoing,,, But from a freshly graduate psudo audio engineer,,That to be expected,,, Well its not the EV DX38,,, the biggest problem is the horn itself For a composit material,,sure resonates but not like a bell,,more like thick cardboard,,could be designed better like the supporting ribes of the K401,,,,, Starting with the throat and flange,,, the driver will not seat properly up to the connecting flange ,,,Warped 3mm,,, Will try a soft gasket to get things aligned,,, but what worries me is the round throat is not fully round,,, flat on one side,, At least when you get a martinelli horn its flange is of high quality and mates with the driver properly.. As far as the bass bin,,Its of high quality workmanship,, fit and finish,d perfect. Kind of reminds me of the Hartsfield,, Although that unit used a 15" woofer rather than two 12" units,,,JBL at least manufactured the drivers and cabinets and the horn was cast out of aluminum. This new composit stuff is supposed to be lighter and just as strong... The walls of this horn have a bad finish inside,,,I would have preferrd a smoother finish rather than a bad ACKNE coating. Heck they could do better than this in China.