Ducatiman916 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I was at audio consultants here in illinois the other day and listened to a pair of bowers and wilkins 800 series speakers.They are 13000 dollars a pair!But if you ask me they are not worth the money.My cf-3 speakers can easily compare to them.But they sure are pretty to look at.They had better imaging and soundstage presence but they were also hooked up to an 11000 dollar amp,8000 dollar preamp and a 3000 dollar disk player.If only i were rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I have done side by side listening comparisons with Klipsch and big dollar speakers......and I mean big dollar speakers......and guess what? .......Here I am. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrfish Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 A chap I worked with one time was an avid wine connoisseur and he taught me that half the fun of it was in finding the absolutely best bottle of wine at absolutely the best price. I think the same logic would apply to audio system building. You build a system you like to your budget and to your space, and savor the fruits of your labors which is only right. If other people want to drop that kind of cash, that's them for that. I'm smarter than that, and you are too. The people who buy things like that do so more for one-upsmanship and to have something to brag about, and do not bring anything to the hobby; plus, that kind of prideful activity is counter-productive to the proposition that we should be nice to people and should not try to humiliate them, especially by means of artifice. If anybody is going to brag about my system, I'd rather it be someone other than me. What I'm listening to in my ears right now sounds pretty good. Most people out there would describe it as the best stereo they had ever heard. My daughter, Rachael, said, "Dad, that's sick". She's 22. 75% of it was bought used or scrounged, found, etc....and I just bought the parts to assemble myself a center channel horn speaker because I needed the center sound stage fill but did not need any further bass in this room and did not see anything better to try now. The bill was considerably under $100. for the parts and that included a super-duper wire stripping tool and some wire terminations. When one of these money-throwers gets to where he can make a system sound this good for under $3000., then you are looking at apples and apples, by way of comparison. Don't wish to be that guy. He has tin ears and is averse to learning anything about what he is doing, and brags to all his buddies not about how good the system is, but rather about how much money he spent. He thinks it sounds good because he spent the big money on it. You don't want to be that guy, trust me. I have been around a lot of them, a bunch of them, and they are among the most perpetually miserable people you could imagine. Build the absolutely best system you can, for the absolutely least amount of money, and have some fun, then tell us about it, so we can share your joy and learn the things you learned along the way?? I think that is a much more socially responsible way to live. Have some fun and help some people. We all have enough bad stuff floating around in our lives, so let's offset that with some good stuff, chosing to be a part of the solution, rather than the problem. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Duck Dude says; "They had better imaging and soundstage presence.........." I say; For some people, that alone would be worth the money. I understand the fun of putting a low cost system together and getting 95% of the sound of a much more expensive system but it's that last 5% that costs the big bucks. I have heard some very large/expensive systems and I have never heard a small/inexpensive system that was even close to the same kind of sound. 13,000 dollars is a lot of money but that is definately middle of the road in high end audio. Some guys have the bucks............. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 'round these parts we kinda specialize in getting the most bang for the buck. There some absolutely insane systems amongst our brethren that were cobbled together for a couple thousand bucks. Amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Colter is my hero [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 A chap I worked with one time was an avid wine connoisseur and he taught me that half the fun of it was in finding the absolutely best bottle of wine at absolutely the best price. I think the same logic would apply to audio system building. You build a system you like to your budget and to your space, and savor the fruits of your labors which is only right. If other people want to drop that kind of cash, that's them for that. I'm smarter than that, and you are too. The people who buy things like that do so more for one-upsmanship and to have something to brag about, and do not bring anything to the hobby; plus, that kind of prideful activity is counter-productive to the proposition that we should be nice to people and should not try to humiliate them, especially by means of artifice. If anybody is going to brag about my system, I'd rather it be someone other than me. What I'm listening to in my ears right now sounds pretty good. Most people out there would describe it as the best stereo they had ever heard. My daughter, Rachael, said, "Dad, that's sick". She's 22. 75% of it was bought used or scrounged, found, etc....and I just bought the parts to assemble myself a center channel horn speaker because I needed the center sound stage fill but did not need any further bass in this room and did not see anything better to try now. The bill was considerably under $100. for the parts and that included a super-duper wire stripping tool and some wire terminations. When one of these money-throwers gets to where he can make a system sound this good for under $3000., then you are looking at apples and apples, by way of comparison. Don't wish to be that guy. He has tin ears and is averse to learning anything about what he is doing, and brags to all his buddies not about how good the system is, but rather about how much money he spent. He thinks it sounds good because he spent the big money on it. You don't want to be that guy, trust me. I have been around a lot of them, a bunch of them, and they are among the most perpetually miserable people you could imagine. Build the absolutely best system you can, for the absolutely least amount of money, and have some fun, then tell us about it, so we can share your joy and learn the things you learned along the way?? I think that is a much more socially responsible way to live. Have some fun and help some people. We all have enough bad stuff floating around in our lives, so let's offset that with some good stuff, chosing to be a part of the solution, rather than the problem. Chuck Got some issues there Chuck? Lighten up a little. There was a thread earlier this year and it turns out that many here have $15,000 to $50,000 in their systems. Maybe they should be banned for being socialy irresponsible, tin-eared, peretually miserable, one-upsman, money throwers. What is the problem if someone can afford something and buys it? That is what you said in your first paragraph and then contradict it until the final statement about being socially irresponsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 "I have heard some very large/expensive systems and I have never heard a small/inexpensive system that was even close to the same kind of sound." The sound from a small set of speaker gets "bigger" as you move closer to the speakers. If you use high quality subbage, and listen in semi-nearfield -- it can knock your socks off. This of course assumes the speakers have an even power response and are relatively efficient -- which isn't always "inexpensive". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The sound from a small set of speaker gets "bigger" as you move closer to the speakers. If you use high quality subbage, and listen in semi-nearfield -- it can knock your socks off.Yes. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Chuck is fine. I worked in the audio business, and I know just the types of whom he speaks. I am here to tell you that even amongst those who have spent into the five figures on systems HERE that this is not the prevailing attitude. My story below illustrates this, more in response to the initial poster than anyone else. I have done side by side listening comparisons with Klipsch and big dollar speakers......and I mean big dollar speakers......and guess what? .......Here I am. Much the same here. Maybe not side-by-side, but I've certainly heard enough speakers in my day to know the sentiment is correct. As a collective, we here at Klipsch enjoy high end audio results on mid-fi dollars. We take the extra time to make the most of just about any gear we hook up to them, and whether we spend $500, $1,000, or $10,000 on the rig attached to those Klipsch, we always get more out of those dollars than most anywhere else on the web. If you have the luxury of patience and time, that time can be more fruitful than any amount of $$$ spent quickly can show you. No amount of $$$ spent alone on various gears could have shown me what the EXPERIENCE of refining and tweaking my gears could have. I spent the better part of four years tweaking my McIntosh MC-30 amps - sampling different parts packages, tube rolling, and basically continuing to ask - "WHAT IF". I KNEW I had amps that were good mates for my speakers, but kept inquiring when I suspected they were not the best they could be. Four years later, I KNOW they are what they can be, at least within that schematic, anyway[] ....and the same for the preamp, and more of the same for the crossovers......swapping identical schematic crossovers of several cap types and brands, to tweak all of the fine edges of a good speaker 'til it's just the way it should be. Keep tweaking the entire signal chain until it's as clean, natural, and true as you can make it.....resulting in a system of 35-50 year old components that make the most of vintage transformers and circuits without the warts. If not for people on this forum here I would not have chased this system in the fashion I did, and I got TONS of priceless help and information from many here to do it. Then take a similar speaker and make it a whole new thing with different gear choices: A modern system with all of the best modern audiophile attributes with all the best of any technology available. I am finishing such a second "home theater/2 channel" system which will blend modern HT and 2 channel modern tube sound. Many will walk into an audio shop looking for that "holy grail".......people who will walk into an audio salon with boatloads of cash, looking for that fits-like-a-glove solution instantly just because they have lots of cash and are accustomed to INSTANT GRATIFICATION NOW. Or they might just be wanting something "bigger" than thier buddy has, just for the one upsmanship thing - to impress others rather than to get a true tailor made solution that takes time to find. This forum is not really like this. No audio shop could walk me down these paths - it don't come that easy!!!! It's nice to have brick and mortar shops to listen and buy stuff, but it's what happens AFTER you get that gear that counts. Do your homework in advance and ask questions - but know there's more beyond the gear the way you get it. We LOVE to take old gear here and "recycle/refurb" - most of my systems are all used/floor sample/rescued items bought for a specific purpose and given new life. And the interactions required to get down the paths I speak of here require more cooperative efforts, which develop relationships beyond the subject of audio. So yes, Chuck's idea has lots of merit, even if it didn't come out as some others here might have preferred. I "get" his "take", and I think I can say that this forum is largely an antidote to that problem. I WILL however warn him of occasional strong opinions, though[] Things can get bloody here on occasion, but think of it as "audio rugby" and don't take anything personally[H] It's like one, big, dysfunctional, yet functional family! No speaker lets you get so many different results than a Heritage does. Want powerful, snappy, dynamic solid state sound? Or do you want a vintage, more relaxed version of the same? Or how about a super sexxah, modest volume, super-close-and-clear SET sound? No matter what your musical taste or interest, you can take a Heritage in a properly sized room and get almost anything you want from it. Not just a rock speaker, or a jazz speaker, or symphony - but ALL of these - a MUSIC speaker. For any budget and musical taste, given the time, anyone can squeeze maximum sound from a Klipsch based system that far exeeds the expense that it sounds like. If you do it right, a Klipsch based system will always sound more expensive than it really cost you. And that is the true genius of the PWK designs, and is ultimately why we are here - no matter what our income. We all seem to get along without nuclear war - most of the time[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 in the summer I don't wear socks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Got some issues there Chuck? I happen to agree with Chuck. I don't think he was referring to many, if any, members of this forum. I would speculate he means the "I am filthy rich and my stuff is better than your stuff" crowd. I personally love to hear about the "best bang for the buck" stories often shared on the forum. Many here and elsewhere search diligently on the web,C-list,garage sales,thrift stores,etc. to find those pieces of treasure. It is a great feeling knowing you spent a couple of grand on a system that you know someone else might have spent five times as much. Even then it is better not to boast. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Got some issues there Chuck? I happen to agree with Chuck. I don't think he was referring to many, if any, members of this forum. I would speculate he means the "I am filthy rich and my stuff is better than your stuff" crowd. I personally love to hear about the "best bang for the buck" stories often shared on the forum. Many here and elsewhere search diligently on the web,C-list,garage sales,thrift stores,etc. to find those pieces of treasure. It is a great feeling knowing you spent a couple of grand on a system that you know someone else might have spent five times as much. Even then it is better not to boast. Bill Yes and yes. Just some harsh criticism in the post. If someone is arrogant and difficult, don't hang around with them. I met a local guy who is in his late 20's (about 12 years younger than me) and has a $100,000+ system. He pieced it together getting deals and has spend considerable time tuning it. And yes, it sounds awesome. Amazing detail and effortless. I do not begrudge him his system. If I had that kind of money I'd probably spend that much, its just beyond my means. He is also as nice as can be. As far as searcing, everyone that I know that has an expensive system scoured Audiogon and bought piece by piece when available used, meaning best bang for the buck. Anyway, not trying to be a troll or start a huge debate. I just thought that the criteria was a little tight, meaning $3000 out the door or you are tin eared and socially irresponsible, especially when JuicyMusic and NOS Valves equipment, which is loved with Klipsch, will set you back more than that for amplification alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 in the summer I don't wear socks. Don't your feet get all sweaty and stinky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 31, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 31, 2009 'round these parts we kinda specialize in getting the most bang for the buck. There some absolutely insane systems amongst our brethren that were cobbled together for a couple thousand bucks. Amazing. You exactly right, and that's the fun part. I am cheap and always will be..........most of the time not by choice. As far as what others have and how much they spent on it does not matter to me, I cant hear it from my house anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Not many people have heard some of the big top end systems, Infinity ServoStatic 2A, Quantum Line source, RS-1, the BIG maggies, Genesis 1.1s or the like. I can't say if they are worth the money for you but I can tell you the ones I've demo-ed sounded pretty darn good. There is no small or cheap speaker that can/could match that kind of sound. The old Infinities can be had for cheap money nowadays but finding parts/repair help is a serious issue (some parts are just not available). The Genesis 1.1s are over $200,000! My guess is that they are worth every penny. If I had the space and the budget, I'd have a pair and if you think your $3000 dollar system sounds just as good, well, we are not on the same planet! Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrfish Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 TWKH, I'm not that heavy, and I do not have a problem with folks being prosperous and enjoying their prosperity. I guess I'm holding out a little for the nuanced, romantic side of the hobby. I worked my way through college partly by working at a Klipsch dealer store that was pretty active, so I got heavily indoctrinated at an early age, and now it's 40 years later and some of what I see out there that passes for good stereo is moderately disturbing, because I know that there is so much MORE and so much better that these people could have, if they would just dive in there and snoop around a little bit. It irks me that the prices on some of the so-called top-end gear are so ridiculously high, and then there's an undercurrent of sympathy for the little guy that drops hard-earned money who gets X benefit from it, where if he had not been lied to and hyped, he might have gotten XXX benefit from his dollars spent. If you are going to run a pair of Jubilee bottoms and an appropriate set of top horns and the amps and front-end necessary to make it all go, you are going to drop some bucks, no doubt, but at least, if you are doing it with the best speakers in the world as we know it, there is inherent honesty in that effort. I can't help but be put off by some of the people I have met who flash money around and act like because they have it they are entitled to be treated like kings. I think the kings are the little guys who make magic almost out of thin air with this hobby. That's just a manifestation of my own particular wierdness, I guess. I think the reason I feel this way about these things is the same reason Mr Klipsch went about with his "Bullshit" lapel buttons and so on. He and I would have got on marvellously. I bet those Tigerwood K-horns are an eyefull, probably sound pretty good, too! Have a great week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 No big thing, I figured that you were just venting about someone in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I don't know if I've ever heard a "million-dollar system," but I certainly have heard systems whose total out-the-door price would have approached $100k. While they sounded VERY, VERY good, my Klischorn-based system also sounds VERY, VERY good. I can't say that I've ever heard a better system than mine when I last had it set up. Maybe there is some bias in there that I am unaware of or maybe it's because I've spent more time with my system than any other, but I believe I have reached the point of complete happiness in my system. For the first time in my life, I have no desire to make any changes. Sure, maybe I'll look around for a better digital source or something of that sort at some point, but it will be more for the excitement of buying something new than for wanting or needing an actual improvement. While I may be biased about my system, I can tell a story of a person that certainly wasn't and visitied my house once to audition an extra pair of K-horns I was selling. He was someone who admitted to have done very well during the real-estate boom in California and stated audio was his only hobby, so he didn't have an issue with spending money if the product was worthwhile. As an example, he told me he owned the Audio Research Reference preamp, which goes for somewhere in the neighborhood of $10k. Anyway, after hearing my system, he claimed it sounded better than his friend's $100k Wilson Audio system. He was hesitant to even consider Klipsch because it wasn't one of those mega-dollar brands but thought it was worth the time to look into them. He did buy those K-horns I was selling and then came back and also bought the rosewood Belles I had for sale. In fact, he was willing to buy my preamp, amps, etc. Now that I think of it, I did eventually also sell him my FI X SET amp. He also wanted to buy my Peach, but I didn't sell it to him. The Klipsch experience ended up being an eye opener for him. You don't have to spend mega-dollars to get great sound. You just have to choose wisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 The sound from a small set of speaker gets "bigger" as you move closer to the speakers. If you use high quality subbage, and listen in semi-nearfield -- it can knock your socks off. Yes. Dean likes to listen from INSIDE the speaker cabinets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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