Stupid Question on Jubilee

[Rudy81]

Pardon the stupid question guys, but can the Jubilee bass bin be used with an ALK universal crossover and a standard Khorn mid an tweeter? Just curious as to the limitations on the Jubilee bass section.

[seti]

I doubt you can use the universal but he does have an ESN posted on the site for the jubilee. That is what I am using right now. The khorn mid and tweeter may have trouble keeping up with the Jubilee LF. Some of the tractrix horns guys are building around here look pretty good.

[Rudy81]

Interesting. I have a Tractrix horn with a JBL 2470 and the eminence APT-150.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

My guess is that the mid/tweeter crossover section will work, but you will want to cross over a little higher because the Jubilee goes higher. As far as keeping up, the tweeter and midrange are attenuated quite a bit to work with the K Horn bass bin, so they should be able to keep up with the Jubilee if it is more efficient.

But you are probably giving up an advantage of the Jubilee, crossing over higher and using a better midrange. Try using a custom bilt Tractrix and good midraneg driver and JBL 2404.

[dtel]

Your also giving up alot without the k402 IMO.

[seti]

The jubilee lf is more effecient than the khorn lf. People are crossing from 400-600. For voicing you don't want to cross higher even though it's performance is good to 1khz. There are lots horns and drivers to try.

[mikebse2a3]

The Jubilee LF is a great foundation to build upon with whatever path you want to take from there as far as the HF section is concerned. I personelly would only use the Khorn HF section as a temporary stepping stone to an even higher reproduction system possible with for example the K510 or K402 and some of the excellent drivers available today.

What the Jubilee LF brings to the table when setup properly is improvemnets is clarity, dynamics and lower distortion (Very Important) which when combined with a high performance HF section will create a system of higher resolution reproduction capability.

Note: a higher resolution system can also be a challenge(because alot of room issues and recordings problems are revealed through such a system and some of those issues can be addressed with a good EQ program that corrects or reduces some recording issues) but when you get things right I would never want a low resolution system that made things just acceptable.

mike tn

[Coytee]

You should get yourself over to see Chris (in Arlington) and hear his. Once hearing them, much of what has been said about the K402 will become clear. Probably worth noting that Chris has upgraded his HF driver on the K402 from the K69 (stock unit) to the uber expensive TAD 4002.

Once you hear his setup, and I'm sure he'd welcome an audition, you might sit back and ask yourself why you are even considering anything else (not that there's anything wrong with anything else). Seems to me, people are shooting for some sonic target by mixing in some of these other parts. If you could hear this target sound, you might consider your quest over.

[Rudy81]

Mike; Thank you for the comments. I'm not sure if the bass bins can even become reality. We'll see. I currently have the ALK Trachorn and Eminence APT-150 tweeters. For me, the combination is fantastic. The Khorn bass has been perfect. I do, however always wonder about other systems and can never leave things alone. The journey is the fun part.

I also use Audyssey eq to make up for any remaining room problems after my room acoustic treatments. The only problem area right now is the 250-400 Hz region which has a bit of an overboost in the room.

[mikebse2a3]

I currently have the ALK Trachorn and Eminence APT-150 tweeters. For me, the combination is fantastic. The Khorn bass has been perfect. I do, however always wonder about other systems and can never leave things alone. The journey is the fun part.

Hey Rudy81

Sounds like a good system and I fully understand were your coming from![]

I'm extremely happy with my Jubilee/K402/TAD4002 system and like you it is the journey that is every bit as important as the destination.

I worry sometimes though that when writting post about the Jubs that people might get the wrong ideas.

It might surprise some that I still very much respect the performance of the stock Klipschorn especially when the acoustics of the room are dealt with so that the full peformance of the Klipschorn is possible. These setups can still take your breath away on great music and that's my ultimate goal with the highest accuracy possible.

Ah yes! the 100Hz to 300Hz area is the largest challenge for most common home listening rooms IMO. I'm not that familiar with the Audyssey system but I have used the Behringer auto program and while it can get me in the ball park (sometimes surprisingly so) I have always done manual tweeking through the process of testing and listening and testing more and ultimately letting the listening test be the final judge of whats needed especially when it comes to dealing with room modes with acoustical and (Proper! electronic Eq-ing) methods.

mike tn

[seti]

That is interesting as I had to eq 100-350 as well.

[Rudy81]

You should get yourself over to see Chris (in Arlington) and hear his. Once hearing them, much of what has been said about the K402 will become clear. Probably worth noting that Chris has upgraded his HF driver on the K402 from the K69 (stock unit) to the uber expensive TAD 4002.

Once you hear his setup, and I'm sure he'd welcome an audition, you might sit back and ask yourself why you are even considering anything else (not that there's anything wrong with anything else). Seems to me, people are shooting for some sonic target by mixing in some of these other parts. If you could hear this target sound, you might consider your quest over.

I have been over to Chris's home. I asked to come by a few months back and he was most gracious in allowing me to come by and have a listen. He in fact did have the TAD 4002's already hooked up. He was in the process of adding his new subwoofers.

I found the sound very 'different' than what I have been used to for many years of listening to Belles, La Scalas and Khorns. The soundfield was much more diffuse than what I hear in my room. I actually had a difficult time pinpointing the imaging and originally thought the TAD's were not wired properly. That was not the case so I don't know if my ears just weren't up to the task. I have been used to such precise imaging that I often times have to make sure my center channel is not even powered when listening to 2 channel. In order to really, fairly, evaluate the Jubs I would have to listen to them in my room in order to be able to make a true comparrison with my Khorns. That is not easily done.

In all fairness, I did not have enough time with the Jubilee's to be able to say if they were that much better than my Khorns. I do know they are 'different' sounding, at least to my unrefined ears. I am also aware that Jubilee owners swear by their superior sound to any other heritage speaker. I would love to have a pair to listen to for a few months, preferably in the same room as my Khorns so i could compare them. Now, that would be fun, crowded, but fun.

[Coytee]

I would love to have a pair to listen to for a few months

Ahh..next time, take your sleeping bag... [] []

[ClaudeJ1]

You should get yourself over to see Chris (in Arlington) and hear his. Once hearing them, much of what has been said about the K402 will become clear. Probably worth noting that Chris has upgraded his HF driver on the K402 from the K69 (stock unit) to the uber expensive TAD 4002.

Once you hear his setup, and I'm sure he'd welcome an audition, you might sit back and ask yourself why you are even considering anything else (not that there's anything wrong with anything else). Seems to me, people are shooting for some sonic target by mixing in some of these other parts. If you could hear this target sound, you might consider your quest over.

The Jubilee bass bin is clearly superior to the Khorn, no doubt, but most cross to it at around 500-600 Hz. The compresion driver on the shorter horn will reveal more detail the the low end of it's linear output than if would coming out of the bass horn.

I have achieved extreme clarity by going 4-way with 1st order networks and a lot of speaker designers have gone this route, each with their own valid technical argument for doing so.

So going 3-way is not a bad idea. One guy here has TAD 4001's for sale because he is going back to M-200 drivers with a lower midrange Xover point in a large horn, which is a smart thing to do with a Khorn bottom.

I'm crossing at 180 Hz. to a big Peavey horn with a 12" driver with a 4" VD in a phase plug, so it easily get to 1Khz. where it smoothly hands off to a big JBL with 2446 J (extreme clarity there from the huge mid-twweter) then off to twin Super Tweeters to most naturally match output levels WITHOUT L-[pads, resistors (wasteful of energy) or AutoTransformers (phase issues according to Roy Delgado).

So no matter your choice, the playground you chose to be in is an excellent one for sure.

[Rudy81]

I would love to be able to cross the bass bin at 500-600 Hz. It would allow me to take the stress off the mid driver. My issue is that I would really like to stay with a passive crossover.

[greg928gts]

I've experimented with the Jubilee and Jamboree bass bins with the K402 and the V-Trac/Beyma and I've found, much to my surprise, that I do NOT prefer the higher crossover frequencies (500Hz - 600Hz) of the bass bin. It seems the lower I get the crossover point between the mid and the bass bin, the better I like the sound overall. This revelation has really changed my approach to the new speaker design I'm working on.

I was also surprised to learn that I prefer 12db slopes to 48db slopes.

I will be doing much more experimenting this winter as I continue to work on the new design.

Greg

[Coytee]

I was also surprised to learn that I prefer 12db slopes to 48db slopes.

Very interesting!!! When I was fooling around with different slopes with some friends, (Dx38 using 24 and Xti (if I recall) using 48) I personally favored the 48 over the 24 feeling that in a side by side comparison AND if the vocals happened to be in the area of the crossover, that you could easily hear in improvement in clarity with the 48db slope.

I'll admit that if you were mixing them back/forth and I walked into the room that I could probably not discern which was which (perhaps others with more cricitical listening habits than I have could). I will admit though, that I personally could not. Fire them up side by side again though and I think I could peg it every time.

I qualify the above with "when being used with vocals near the crossover, perhaps like with Bonnie Rait" I also do not think I could tell a difference if there was something like instrumental or orchestral playing.

Others probably had a different evaluation but that was mine. I wish I could take the Dx48 up to a 48db slope.

You probably don't like kosher salt on breadsticks either, do you? [] (I love it)

[Rudy81]

The Jubilee seems to be a very touchy system to setup. I may just have to stick with my Khorns. I don't have the time or expertise to mess around with crossovers etc.

[Coytee]

The Jubilee seems to be a very touchy system to setup. I may just have to stick with my Khorns. I don't have the time or expertise to mess around with crossovers etc.

I'm not taking issue with anything you say regarding lack of time/other... but.... I want to offer perhaps a point of clarification.

I can assure you that if I can take a mixture of 'stuff' and set the Jubilees up, then anyone can. It is not touchy... *if* you stick with the engineered solutions. You (speaking in general, not 'you') can get the Jubilees, dx38 and either some XLR amps or XLR adapters and plug & go. You can also take the recipe for the passive which I know some prefer, build it yourself or if experience with that is not there (as it is not with me), probably have someone else build it at a slightly higher expense.

Setting up the Jubilees does not have to be touchy at all. If and when people start to work outside the engineered solutions and create their own solutions then yes, I could see where it might easily become a complication. Meaning, I personally would have ZERO clue on how to take (for example) Greg's Trachorn's and make them work on the Jubilee. I'd have no idea at all. Now... if Roy put them into the chamber and gave me the paramaters for the dx38, I could program it and have it up & running in less than 10 minutes. (forgetting about the fact that the dx38 is 2-way and the trachorns are 3-way, I'm only speaking in theory)

All that to simply say, they are not as touchy as some have at times, suggested. Heck...even Chris was able to set his up! [] [6]

[seti]

The Jubilee seems to be a very touchy system to setup. I may just have to stick with my Khorns. I don't have the time or expertise to mess around with crossovers etc.

There are some similarities between the early days fo the khorn and the early days of the jubilee. In the early days of the khorn many people would buy the LF then find their own hf horn/driver and build their own crossovers. It is the same thing here. If you go with what has already been done than you don't have to worry about it being touchy. The hard part of the Jubilee is finding hf horns and drivers that can keep up with it in quality of sound. The Jubilee is a winner. It is more effecient with even lower distortion than the khorn.