Can Mid-FI be better than High End HI-FI?

[Mallette]

Gentlemen, and ladies...

This thread makes me proud to be a member of this great community and suggests that there is no finer bunch of humans on the planet.

May 2010 make the memory of PWK's legend and his legacy grow in that what he did was about the MUSIC.

Dave

[ClaudeJ1]

Price is not always an indicator of sound quality.

Dr. Earl Geddes, brilliant audio scientist, uses a bottom of the line Panasonic 5.1 receiver with chip amps. He tested it's distortion and feels it's all that's necessary for good HT or 2 channel. He uses external amps for his 4 subwoofers. I suspect those are not top of the line. His speakers are 2-way using a comprssion driver on Oblate Spheroid waveguides (similar ot a horn).

I'm using an Onkyo receiver on my ALL HORN 5.1 system, including twin Khorn clone bass units as suwoofers, to which the Audyssey "EQ for dummies" has applied a 25 Hz boost. I listen at the industry prescribed 85 db level, allowing for dynamic peaks of about 1 watt or two, since my system efficiency is up around 109 db/W

All amplifiers today are good. The most expensive and important component in a system is the ROOM. People buying fancy electronics are not putting the money where it counts, after the room, it's the speakers!!

All this high end stuff is expensive BS with very low return on investment in terms of enjoyment.

[seti]

Little Rock (Bleaker Street)

Wow I remember listening to Bleaker for years but what ever happened to it?

[seti]

If the toes tapping and I can listen for long periods of time it must be hi-fi regardless of price. It is about the music.

Hypothetical situation. If I had bags of money to spend on hifi without consequence or worry I would do it. Why not? I wouldn't buy boring esoteric equipment that looks like everything else. I'd buy music that more resembles modern art and that could stand as such after its usefulness passes. The equipment of Don Garber of Fi and Josh Stipich of Electron Luv would be top of my list.

[Groomlakearea51]

Thought about "hi-fi"... Some "IMHO" thoughts.

~50% is gonna' be the speakers; after all regardless of the source, the amps, etc, it's the speaker that needs to be as accurate as possible. Horns in some form are the key. Bigger are generally better, not always, but analogy wise, as an example.... Klipschorns come to mind...

~25% is gonna be the amps which have to process the source with minimal loss and minimal "coloration" (except tubes which depend on their individual "coloration" for which they are noted and often desirable); Regardless of cost or type, always consider the following:

• Total harmonic distortion, measured in %, usually within the 20-20kHz range. Lower is better...
• Transient/ intermodulation distortion, measured in % which is actually quite important.... the ability of the amp to change the frequencies properly. Look for the "rise times" or how long it takes to change. Lotta stuff written about it, so I won't attempt to "re-write a book". A good "read" is Bruce Rozenblitt's (Transcendent) "Audio Reality". Down to earth, simply put, and with many details on modern tube amps.
• RMS power is sorta important, particularly if you like to melt your brain on Friday nights... but a solid RMS level is important to ensure you have sufficient power for the transient peaks. Look at peak power, and if you can find out, see what the distortion figures are during that peak. The reality of RMS is that unless you are a "brain melter", you don't really need more than a few watts with Klipsch Heritage speakers, etc.
• Weight...... weight?!! Well sorta'..... actually one thing most "hi-fi" amps have is massive power transformers (except certain OTL designs). They weigh alot. What you are looking for are heavy duty power transformers that can handle the "peak" loads during transients. Sometimes referred to as "headroom"... Also look at power consumption on the back label (UL sticker). If an amp says 100 watts RMS and only sucks down 250 watts max, then the transformers ain't real big....
• Quality caps, resistors, etc. silver soldered conections, high quality "pots", etc.
• Solid built chassis. Most modern "consumer grade" chassis's are crappy stamped metal and can flex under simple moving around. Flexing is bad for circuit boards, etc.

~25% will be the "source". Crappy CD players, crappy TT's and carts, etc. reduce an otherwise "hi-fi" system to low fi..... The trick is to get the LP or CD or recording tape to the amp with as little possible loss as possible.

Unfortunately, and notwithstanding the great "finds" that can be had, the old hot rod adage sometimes is a good analogy. "Speed costs money... How fast do you want to go?"

I would define "hi-fi" as a system that is very accurate in the processing and reproduction of the sound through the speakers, irrespective of cost. I would also say that the "accuracy" very often will cost money, and can be alot unless one is lucky and finds used "accurate" equipment.

Regardless of any accuracy however, the room in which the equipment and speakers are placed must be suitable. The finest system in the world will not sound very good if the room has problems with reflections and absorption. This is also why speaker placement is of such importance. In the end it will be a compromise, at least for most folks without the luxury of a fully "treated" and "dedicated" listening room.

Just some thoughts.

[H]

[Thaddeus Smith]

growing up, i had wet dreams about the kind of gear i own now (and i do OWN it ..no hobby debt here). so in the sense of blissful ignorance, my system is most certainly hi-fi. and in another decade or two i hope to look back and scoff. or maybe not... either way i love my music experience as it stands now.

[colterphoto1]

for me, most of my non-HT/non car- music listening is done in the shop with the PA.

sounds like music to me

[ka7niq]

Gentlemen, and ladies...

This thread makes me proud to be a member of this great community and suggests that there is no finer bunch of humans on the planet.

May 2010 make the memory of PWK's legend and his legacy grow in that what he did was about the MUSIC.

Dave

THAT gave me goosebumps Bro !

I met PWK at the Detroit Audio Show at Cobo Hall back in the 70's.

The whole Klipsch bunch had Bullshit Buttons, and PWK personally hung one on me in the Klipsch Room!

Bob Carver was there, with his Phase Linear Andromeda Speakers, and the good people at Onkyo really impressed me by their devotion to sound.

James Bongiorno was also there, I think with SAE or GAS back then ?

He was hanging with his friend Bob Carver.

I remember PWK as a nice man,and he was pleased my Grandpa had a 3 channel Klipschorn with center channel Klipsch system in his basement.

PWK with his bullshit button had utter contempt for many audio lies going down, back then.

I remember his terminology for speakers compressing was "running out of horsepower".

He made quite an impression on me the one and only time I ever met him.

[SWL]

for me, most of my non-HT/non car- music listening is done in the shop with the PA

....but can it go loud enough? []

[Pete H]

I've been listening to my LOW FI system in my shop while I've been working in it for the last week for hours on end (Sansui G5500 and a pair of RB 5's) and everyone that has stopped by is blown away by the high dollar $250 system. You don't have to invest tons of money to get quality, enjoyable sound.

[ClaudeJ1]

Klispsh speakers, at any size or dollar amout, make the fewest sonic compromises of anything else out there. This is what makes them "the best" in so many applications.

[Mallette]

Gentlemen, and ladies...

This thread makes me proud to be a member of this great community and suggests that there is no finer bunch of humans on the planet.

May 2010 make the memory of PWK's legend and his legacy grow in that what he did was about the MUSIC.

Dave

THAT gave me goosebumps Bro !

I met PWK at the Detroit Audio Show at Cobo Hall back in the 70's.

The whole Klipsch bunch had Bullshit Buttons, and PWK personally hung one on me in the Klipsch Room!

Bob Carver was there, with his Phase Linear Andromeda Speakers, and the good people at Onkyo really impressed me by their devotion to sound.

James Bongiorno was also there, I think with SAE or GAS back then ?

He was hanging with his friend Bob Carver.

I remember PWK as a nice man,and he was pleased my Grandpa had a 3 channel Klipschorn with center channel Klipsch system in his basement.

PWK with his bullshit button had utter contempt for many audio lies going down, back then.

I remember his terminology for speakers compressing was "running out of horsepower".

He made quite an impression on me the one and only time I ever met him.

My couple of hours with him (described several times in these pages) was similar. I was a college kid with no money, and he spent a couple of hours with me and explained EVERYTHING I would ever need to know about audio as though I was not probably the 10,000th person he'd said the same things to and answered the same dumb questions.

A true giant and gentleman.

Dave

[russ69]

Klispsh speakers, at any size or dollar amout, make the fewest sonic compromises of anything else out there.

Really? Maybe this isn't the place but trading all other parameters for efficiency is a fairly big compromise IMHO.

Thanx, Russ

[Mallette]

There

Klispsh speakers, at any size or dollar amout, make the fewest sonic compromises of anything else out there.

Really? Maybe this isn't the place but trading all other parameters for efficiency is a fairly big compromise IMHO.

Thanx, Russ

I'm with Claude. There is the source material, and the loudspeaker. First and last. The middle equipment cannot improve poor source material, and the loudspeakers can only make it worse. Efficicency is important, but you sieized on that, not Claude. Minimum distortion and NATURAL is important. Can't think of a more efficient, natural amplifier than a horn.

There are a few other brands, mainly historic, that could match Klipsch in some ways. However, PWK's designs have outlived them all and also come in a much wider selection than any I can think of.

All that stuff in the middle, with the exception of phono equipment, requires only a modicum of effort to build to 98% of all their is to hear. Microphones and loudspeakers require far more effort and those of lessor build quality stick out with much more prominence than a 100.00 CD player does playing first class material.

JMHO

Dave

[ka7niq]

My couple of hours with him (described several times in these pages) was similar. I was a college kid with no money, and he spent a couple of hours with me and explained EVERYTHING I would ever need to know about audio as though I was not probably the 10,000th person he'd said the same things to and answered the same dumb questions.

A true giant and gentleman.

Dave

I sold some old western electric horns to jim hunter of klipsch for his horn museum, back in the early 80's.

The **** didn't want them, so I gave jim a great deal on them for the horn museum.

I used to pluck western electric stuff out of movie theatres years ago, made a lot of money off the ****.

I USED to think they were crazy, buying that "obsolete" western electric crap, LOL

UNTIL I actuall heard a full blown western electric system in Vancouver, B.C !!

It truly was a life chaging experience!

Our grandpa's knew far better sound IMHO then we do !!!!

[oldenough]

I've been listening to my LOW FI system in my shop while I've been working in it for the last week for hours on end (Sansui G5500 and a pair of RB 5's) and everyone that has stopped by is blown away by the high dollar $250 system. You don't have to invest tons of money to get quality, enjoyable sound.

Just as a point of reference...would that really be considered Lo-Fi??

[DrWho]

Really? Maybe this isn't the place but trading all other parameters for efficiency is a fairly big compromise IMHO.

I wouldn't say Klipsch trades all other parameters for efficiency...

Just because something is of higher priority doesn't automatically require that all other performance variables are being sacrificed. However, one does need to create a parameter priority in order to determine design tradeoffs when they do occur.

I have no problem recommending Klipsch for any given price point, but I don't think I would ever say Klipsch is always the best at every price. It's just easier to tell someone to buy the biggest Klipsch they can afford because 90% of the time they'll be more than content with the purchase.

[russ69]

I wouldn't say Klipsch trades all other parameters for efficiency...

I'm not an expert on speaker design but I think there is a trade off in frequency response and phase angle (within reason) to gain or preserve efficiency. Maybe one of our experts can explain it better than I can. Hey, I love my Klipsch and they are a successful design but the design trade offs are there to hear.

Thanx, Russ

[DTLongo]

Interesting string, sorry I came in late, was away for the holidays. I too had a '53 Chevy that I remember well and fondly. Blue-Flame six-cylinder 115 hp. with Powerglide auto transmission. I don't remember the radio particularly, though. Before that I had a '53 Oldsmobile 98 Rocket 4-door sedan, eight cylinders, a real tank, smooth as silk, used oil to the nines but a sweet ride. My father picked it up as a junker for $5.00 or so from a friend and had it fixed up for a few hundred $ more and that barge took me through college in the early 1960's. It had a SWEET radio. Big sonorous speaker in the center of the dashboard. AM-only and tubes or course, took a minute or so to "warm up," how quaint. The Olds finally died and I acquired the more economical Chevy afterward.

Fast forward through decades to the present (see profile below). Despite a near-top of the line system I can still live with mid-fi which in fact is what I have in the HT room next door. Yet...for serious full-bore, live-volume, you-are-there symphonic listening of fortissimo material, those Klipschorns really shine! It's like that big old Oldsmobile. Nice to have those "cubic inches." The softer inner voices (flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons) really shine too even at lower volumes.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with decent mid-fi, say, $1,000.00 all up including $500.00 for speakers, for 90% to 95% of listening. But for that last few percent, ain't nothing better than striving for the best one can afford. At age 67 I think I've gotten to where I'm going to get with my ALK-upgraded Klipschorns.

[Mallette]

Efficiency is only one of the 8 cardinal rules. PWK sought to maximize price/peformance and identified these points as key to designing the optimum loudspeaker.

IMHO, the Kliphschorn remains the price/performance king.

There may be better sounding speakers, but they cost much more. There are less expensive speakers, but there sound will suffer.

That's my story and I'm skickn' to it.

Dave