bigblaze Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I took a chance on a mcintosh mc252 rated at 250 watts per channel. I was using a cayan ta30 rated at 30 watts a channel. with the cayin tube amp the vocals seemed to come from dead center like the singer was standing right in front of you. with the mcintosh the vocals seem spread accross the whole front wall. the mcintosh has a great overall sound to it but I prefere the central position of the vocalist with the tube amp. can anyone exlplain what it is that causes this difference? it was a very expensive dissapointment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 You hooked it up out of phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigblaze Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 not out of phase. I can go from one amp to the other and there is a clear differrence. even my wife can hear the extreme difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 It could just be personal preference. I love the sound of tubes vs: solid state. My preference is the EL-84/6BQ5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 with the cayin tube amp the vocals seemed to come from dead center like the singer was standing right in front of you. Welcome to hi-fi. Some stuff works together and some doesn't. That's our hobby, you don't know until you try it out. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I also noticed that with my 252..... Try walking closer to the speakers. When I did I got very close and when I did the sound centered itself... strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I know this sounds stupid.... but just for the fun of it, swap the speaker wires on the terminals of one speaker and see what happens. If that makes it sound better, then they were out of phase. It happens. I've done it several times and could have sworn I hooked something up correctly. Just a thought to try something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank1938 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 If the sound seems to travel down the side walls and the bass is off, it is probably phasing. Try switching the wires as suggested. Phasing is usually very noticeable, just as you describe it. Double check your wiring just to be sure. The fact that two 252 amps exhibited the same result could indicate something peculiar about that amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Good amps or bad, the image still should be centered - its physics. If your preamp has a mono switch, use that to check phase (in mono, everything is centered - if not, you're out of phase). Also, some Mac amps have gain pots - check to see that they are synched. If the output is not equal, the image will be vague and unbalanced. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigblaze Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 checked phasing and it was correct. I decided the best thing to is use both amps and biamp. I had an electronic crossover laying around and put it to use. I figured with the great reputation and high price of Mcintosh gear the amp would exibit great imaging. pretty sure I will not buy Mcintosh again. I have a pair of dynaudio speakers available that image very well. I will have to try them with the amp to see if it is just the klipshorns that do not do well with the amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I have an MC 252 and have not noticed a centering image issue. But I replaced the MC252 with a recently rebuilt vintage MC 250 and found a much deeper soundstage, better separation between the instruments, better imaging in general. The MC 252 is clearer, more resolving, more powerful, and smooth. It's simple, they are different. You use the one you prefer. I will say that the MC 252 is very smooth and warm with my horns (speakers in my avatar). Very pleasing. But the MC 250 is almost like a tube amp. More depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigblaze Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 I aggree the mc 252 was extremely smooth and warm. just not as musical. the tube amp places the vocalist into a spot about 12 inches by 12 inches dead center on the fron wall. the mcintosh spread it accross the whole wall. tube amp is not as smooth but images much better. I now have the mc 252 on bass duty only and tube amp on the mids and highs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Tubes > Solid State when it comes to the Khorns, and especially when it comes to McIntosh. Try a well sorted pair of the MC30 monoblocks, or even an MC225 or MC240, and you'll be floored by the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Some stuff works together and some doesn't. That's our hobby, you don't know until you try it out. Russ, this isn't directed towards you at all, you just happened to say something that sparked this in me. It seems to me that we should be able to come to grips and "know" that a certain amp, a certain brand, a certain tube type.... should "ALWAYS" work great with something like a Khorn. It seems however that we can not come to some black/white agreements on certain amps working perfectly as well as certain other amps, NOT working perfectly (as in, something we ALL could agree on... 100%) I'm asking myself why is this? Why is it that we (myself included) basically suggest to someone that "try it until you find something you like" Since we can not come to 100% consensus that (insert amp) will ALWAYS sound killer with a pair of Khorns or that another amp will ALWAYS sound horrific with Khorns, I'm wondering if that really means that there is something else going on here, influencing our process. The room? I really think that we should be able to come to some unequivical conclusions and create a list of amps that work great with these speakers as well as an unequivical list of amps that suck with these speakers. Since we can't, I think we all probably have more area to improve our rooms than we might realize (or want to believe?) Just some meandering thoughts I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I really think that we should be able to come to some unequivical conclusions and create a list of amps that work great with these speakers as well as an unequivical list of amps that suck with these speakers. Yes and no. After enough guys try out a certain combination they can generally get a feel for the characteristics of set-up but everybody always has a little different set-up. For example, a guy could mix a dry sounding amp with a bouncy pre-amp and the combo might work. I always suggest trying things because you really don't KNOW until you have given the gear a chance in your system, every once in a while I get a surprise. On the other hand, most equipment from the same manufacturer has a common sound signature or house sound and audiophiles are well aware of the sonic characteristics. Guys with experience can make the suggestions but there is always someone that will offer the alternate view. In most cases guys have already invested in the gear and it's not working out. At that point it's hard to tell the fellow it's a bad combination. They often ask"What do you think of my new wife". Man it's a little too late for that question! I'm outspoken about what I think works and what I think won't work but I'm in the minority. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollar bill Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 My meandering thought is sympathy for all the wives out there that are labeled as the "even they heard the difference" or "she is making me get rid of". Really? Why do so many "audiophiles" use their wife as the example of a lesser ear? Wife of Dtel, Amy, others(?) I know there's a boys & their toys thing that goes on with us, but you and I'm sure many(most) females can hear just as well as their spouses, if not better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sootshe Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 think you also need to consider the other components in your system. Maybe the Mac doesn't really gel with your preamp? I've found that there can be synergies between various combinations of complete system components & you may be doing the Mac an injustice in this case....or maybe it's just not what you prefer to hear? I don't think you can make any assumptions in this game, as more often than not what you think won't work sometimes does sound better. You really do have to try equipment out on your own gear & in your own room before you make that final decision...difficult sometimes, I know. As to whether we should be able to produce a list of what sounds good with a KHorn, well, I know that what I think sounds good may be completely different from what someone else thinks sounds good. After years & years of different speakers, amps, preamps, sources, & listening to many other high end systems the one thing I've learned is that you need to put together a system that YOU like & not what someone else tells you sounds good. It's all great fun along the journey. Oh, yes & my wife can always hear the difference when something is changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 My meandering thought is sympathy for all the wives out there that are labeled as the "even they heard the difference" or "she is making me get rid of". Really? Why do so many "audiophiles" use their wife as the example of a lesser ear? Wife of Dtel, Amy, others(?) I know there's a boys & their toys thing that goes on with us, but you and I'm sure many(most) females can hear just as well as their spouses, if not better! I think its because for the most part they are not as interested in the process as we are or should I say I am. My wife has way better ears than I do but she doesnt care about it as much as I do. I love trying new things and screwing around with the stereo. She is more casual. But when she walks in and says " what did you do to the stereo..it sounds better" I dont think wow even her dumb ears can tell the difference, I think wow she doesnt care about this and the difference is so apparent that she felt the need to comment. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I know this sounds stupid.... but just for the fun of it, swap the speaker wires on the terminals of one speaker and see what happens. If that makes it sound better, then they were out of phase. It happens. I've done it several times and could have sworn I hooked something up correctly. Just a thought to try something. I did that with my new Belle networks. First time I had hooded up a speaker out of phase in 20 years. Humbling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I am running a MAC 2105 with K horns. Previously with a pair of tubemagic 300bs. I found some of the same things going back and forth in comparison before the one of the tube amps failed. The trade off was that MAC kicked butt with great bass response and volume. the tubes sounded great and there was a distinct placement of the singer and the other band members- but I found the tube amp lacking in the bass response and volume areas- not bad- but nothing like the MAC. The solution in my mind was to buy a bigger tube amp with the warm musical sound and the bass response as well. I was certainly not disapointed with my mac/K horn setup. I am sure I will miss certain aspects of it when I go back to tubes- next week when my tube amps arrive. totally different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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