Tests: K-69-A driver on Edgar type wood Tractrix horn

[Deang]

LOL, yes Bruce, I posted that. That's what happens when you simply regurgitate what others tell you without researching it for yourself.

[Marvel]

LOL, yes Bruce, I posted that. That's what happens when you simply regurgitate what others tell you without researching it for yourself.

I think the point is made that it is a pretty darn good driver on its own, and it's included on the Klipsch horns when you buy them. You can't get a naked horn, and supply your own driver. So those with the money often go up to the TAD drivers. Then they have the K-69s sitting there in a box wondering what to do with them. Chris is still wanting to use his, and more power to him.

Not trying to give you a hard time... []

Bruce

[Marvel]

These drivers are good enough that the real issue is getting spare K510-like horns to use the "leftover K-69As" on other speakers.

Agreed! They are still a very good driver for the money. Even for more money!

[djk]

"The specs of the two drivers are a bit different"

The marketing guys write the spec sheets, they bear little relationship to reality.

Three years ago when I wrote about the P-Audio driver they were available for as little as $89 each (in small quantity). It's a great driver for the money.

[DrWho]

So...I'm thinking about something like this, although I'd still go with the K-510 if it were available in horn-only configuration, so that I could mount my existing K-69As. I wonder if Klipsch would grant special dispensation and sell a couple?

Apparently QSC has a horn that seems somewhat similar to the K510 that people are buying through their parts department for a very cheap price (like $40 or something insane like that):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1228595
I know I've seen more data published on this horn elsewhere, but I wasn't very interested for other reasons and wasn't able to find all that info (or even the part number) again after a quick search.

Another horn that looks to be somewhat similar is the P.Audio PH-4525:
http://www.paudio.ro/pdf/products/PH-4525.pdf
It goes for $110 at US Speaker:
http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm
I've not seen sufficient data to actually recommend this horn, but reading between the lines it looks like something I'd like to try out sometime. Of course it's recommended to go with the Pre-Neo 750 which is basically a lighter version of the BMD750.

http://www.paudio.ro/pdf/products/PreNeo-750N.pdf
http://www.paudio.ro/pdf/products/BM-D750.pdf

[ClaudeJ1]

As you say, Al, the K69 really does need an active crossover to sound its best. Of course, I haven't heard the effect of the $3000 passives that one forum member is using with his Jubilees.

I believe those high end passives were designed by Roy and are used with the TAD Beryllium diaphragmmed Large Format driver (4002?)

[mikebse2a3]

Of course, we later learned that the driver wasn't modified at all, but just off the shelf bmd750s. We also later learned that there seemed to be quite a bit of varience in the performance of these drivers.

Just curious Dean but what exactly is the varience that your refering to and by how much?

Did you also know that even the TADs have performance variences that would surprise many and yet they are still excellent drivers?

The real question here is just as Klipsch use to select the K77's based on performance parameters being meet as set by them and sending any back that didn't meet their minimum parameters I would sure expect Klipsch to continue to set minimum acceptable parameters(like all excellent manufactures in many fields do) before the Klipsch name goes on it.

If the subjective performance of this driver is acceptable, then why are most of the users of the thing dumping it as soon as they can afford to?

Speaking for myself here Dean, I still have a great deal of respect for the K69A and especially considering the price difference between it and the TADs. I have absolutely no intention of "dumping mine" since they will be used in a future project.

mike tn

[Islander]

If the subjective performance of this driver is acceptable, then why are most of the users of the thing dumping it as soon as they can afford to?

Speaking for myself here Dean, I still have a great deal of respect for the K69A and especially considering the price difference between it and the TADs. I have absolutely no intention of "dumping mine" since they will be used in a future project.

mike tn is right. The K-69-A is a major upgrade from the K55/K-77 combo, but you can spend over $2000 for a pair of TADs and get even better sound. No surprise there. More money usually equals more performance, but if the performance increase doesn't correlate with the cost increase, it's not great value.

If I had the money on hand and everything on my wants/needs list above "upgraded tweeter drivers" had been acquired or otherwise crossed off, I'd likely buy a pair of TADs, since they get great reviews from everyone who has heard them. In the meantime, I'm really enjoying the sound of the K-69-As.

To put it in car terms, a Corvette ZR-1 is a great car, but the regular Corvette makes a lot of drivers happy without feeling inadequate because they didn't spend the money for the top of the line.

[Chris A]

I've not seen sufficient data to actually recommend this horn, but reading between the lines it looks like something I'd like to try out sometime.

Wow Mike - the P.Audio PH-4525 looks like a slightly larger K-510 [8-|]. I think that I'll invest in that one for grins, and try the next smaller one (3223) also since they really aren't pricey (unlike the ones from that I referenced earlier - like 10x the cost). I've already got spare K-69As and an EV Dx38, and just enough test gear to do just about everything that I need to test.

Chris []

[jwc]

If the subjective performance of this driver is acceptable, then why are most of the users of the thing dumping it as soon as they can afford to?

Speaking for myself here Dean, I still have a great deal of respect for the K69A and especially considering the price difference between it and the TADs. I have absolutely no intention of "dumping mine" since they will be used in a future project.

mike tn is right. The K-69-A is a major upgrade from the K55/K-77 combo, but you can spend over $2000 for a pair of TADs and get even better sound. No surprise there. More money usually equals more performance, but if the performance increase doesn't correlate with the cost increase, it's not great value.

If I had the money on hand and everything on my wants/needs list above "upgraded tweeter drivers" had been acquired or otherwise crossed off, I'd likely buy a pair of TADs, since they get great reviews from everyone who has heard them. In the meantime, I'm really enjoying the sound of the K-69-As.

To put it in car terms, a Corvette ZR-1 is a great car, but the regular Corvette makes a lot of drivers happy without feeling inadequate because they didn't spend the money for the top of the line.

I apologize to Al K for contributing to this thread in a fashion that he may not want. But I thought I would throw in a bit of info.

Islander has my K69/510 combo that I owned a few years ago. That combo is also the one ALK tested out a few years back. Maybe Al still has the curves on it.

I have aquired another pair since then.

The ones Islander has are capable of reproducing above 15K Hz. The ones I have now will not. I can throw all kinds of EQ at them and they drop like a rock at 15K.

jc

OK...I see where Al posted this before. My K69/K510 won't go out this far....

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/1345700/k69.JPG

[Rudy81]

Wow Mike - the P.Audio PH-4525 looks like a slightly larger K-510 . I think that I'll invest in that one for grins, and try the next smaller one (3223) also since they really aren't pricey (unlike the ones from that I referenced earlier - like 10x the cost). I've already got spare K-69As and an EV Dx38, and just enough test gear to do just about everything that I need to test.

Chris

Chris, let us know how your testing goes with that horn. It looks like an inexpensive option for some us. Depending on performance, it could provide a great bang for the buck value.

[Chris A]

Chris, let us know how your testing goes with that horn. It looks like an inexpensive option for some us. Depending on performance, it could provide a great bang for the buck value.

Certainly. It'll be probably 2-3 weeks, based on how long it takes to receive the two horns (...just ordered 'em...) and to get everything set-up/working.

My goal is always better sound reproduction at lower cost. Looks and "unearned pedigree" mean very little, including the use of "esoteric electronics gear" to solve what are mainly speaker issues...

Chris []

[DrWho]

I'm very interested in your results too, Chris. Will you have an opportunity to do any off-axis measurements outdoors? Without Roy's special sauce, there should be a suckout near the Fc of the horn that tucks the polars in quite a bit. Whenever I find myself with more time, I was going to try out this horn on a very large baffle to see what effects it had on the frequency and polar response.

To bring it back on topic, the polar suckout will get worse the more you truncate the horn (since there's a larger diffraction effect happening at the mouth). Sometimes you can even see a small dip on-axis too...

[Deang]

No worries Bruce.

Mike -- the variance in performance between the drivers that I referred to relates to their HF performance.

When I first set up my Jubilees, I thought the K-69-A sounded great. Over time, it began to grate on my nerves. Even with good material, I couldn't turn it up too loud without it making me want to wince. Oh sure, blame my room -- but I never had that particular problem with my Klipschorns. The driver had the same effect on me both in Hope and Indy. Basically, it sounds nice until you jack it. My beef probably isn't with the K-69-A as much as it is with titanium loaded drivers in general (for the midrange). There were a lot of threads about the quality of source material, room treatments and EQ. However, I came back to the simple fact that I'd never had issues before -- so I blamed the driver. Now, I imagine that this is preferred over blaming the K-402.[]

[Chris A]

Will you have an opportunity to do any off-axis measurements outdoors?

That was my plan. Getting something that can measure the off-angle is the only issue that I presently have, but I don't see this as a difficult problem.

Without Roy's special sauce, there should be a suckout near the Fc of the horn that tucks the polars in quite a bit.

I'm assuming that you are referring to the transition of the 402 toward the mouth area. Look closely at the picture of the PH-4525 and tell me what you see (...and I know the pictures aren't that good, but we're just talking first order guessing here). The two horn profiles look pretty much the same to me (except overall dimensions, but I may not be talking about the same thing as you are).

...the polar suckout will get worse the more you truncate the horn (since there's a larger diffraction effect happening at the mouth).

I think that the problem that you are mentioning may be more pronounced on the PH-3223, and that was the one that I was most interested in from a size perspective (i.e., it looks like it will fit inside a Heresy I enclosure [] ).

Chris

[Rudy81]

Just to add fuel to the fire, the P Audio SD750 also seems like a reasonably priced option and at least on paper seems to perform well.

[mikebse2a3]

Mike -- the variance in performance between the drivers that I referred to relates to their HF performance.

When I first set up my Jubilees, I thought the K-69-A sounded great. Over time, it began to grate on my nerves. Even with good material, I couldn't turn it up too loud without it making me want to wince. Oh sure, blame my room -- but I never had that particular problem with my Klipschorns. The driver had the same effect on me both in Hope and Indy. Basically, it sounds nice until you jack it. My beef probably isn't with the K-69-A as much as it is with titanium loaded drivers in general (for the midrange). There were a lot of threads about the quality of source material, room treatments and EQ. However, I came back to the simple fact that I'd never had issues before -- so I blamed the driver. Now, I imagine that this is preferred over blaming the K-402.

Interesting Dean

Just so you know even the TADs can exhibit variations in the very HF.... this is another reason to go active for the optimum sound..(and to all my passive friends []..[]).

Dean really I hope no one claims the K69-A is perfect (nor active or passive crossovers either) but I honestly have many times put an excellent horn systems in a room to only have it become edegy and piercing at certain frequencies. To make things even worse (particulary Horn based systems) treatments such as absorption especially on the side walls at the first reflection points can make this even worse (although imaging in some ways will improve) it will suck the life, dynamics and change the perceived tonal balance of the system in a very negative way while increasing listener fatigue. There are some very logical reasons why this is especially so with horn based systems. If anyone experiences this, I would suggest an experiment in which the sidewall absortion is removed and see if the dynamics and tonality improves. If it does then I would suggest in such a situation that a listener would best benefit his listening room and experience by controlling these very important reflections with some form of diffusion (implemented correctly) that will increase the lateral reflections (see: Floyde Tooles comments and experiences about this subject) which will increase a sense of envelopement, imaging and tonality while bringing a reduction in edegyness and fatigue.

Hey Dean this is truely my honest opinion/experience here, If a person can't get hours of enjoyment out of listening to a KHorn or Jubilee based system then I believe they truely haven't gotten the bugs worked out of their systems and/or even more likely the room's acoustics.

Take Care Dean..!

mike tn[]

[Rudy81]

miketn, excellent comments on room acoustics. I originally had placed big absorbers along the side walls of my room, starting at the the first reflection points on my Khorns. Over time I realized that 'stereo' sounded dead and lifeless. I ripped everything out and started over. I now only have two small absorbers along the opposite wall reflection points. I also made them so I could easily remove and 'move' them around at will so I could test various positions. I now have very little high freqency absorption along the walls, although the ceiling does have quite a bit of absorption at the reflection points to match the carpeted floor.

My room now consists mostly of heavy bass absorbers in the room corners and two large quadratic diffusers along the back wall. Imaging is outstanding and sound is really crisp and defined (greatly helped by going active recently). I do have some deficiencies due to the driver and horn combinations, but it is overall satisfactory.

I maintain that room acoustics is THE biggest influence on what you hear. Great speakers in a crappy room will still sound crappy. Just my opinion of course.

[Chris A]

To make things even worse (particulary Horn based systems) treatments such as absorption especially on the side walls at the first reflection points can make this even worse (although imaging in some ways will improve) it will suck the life, dynamics and change the perceived tonal balance of the system in a very negative way while increasing listener fatigue.

Mike tn: Do you attribute this to driver harshness, poor overall balance of the speaker, or something else? I assume that when the front of the room is more reverberent, the effects of speaker/room harsness is diminished (i.e., Toole's comments on room acoustics).

Chris

[Chris A]

I'm very interested in your results too, Chris.

Looks like we already have a preview -- remember this? The driver used was a BMS 4590.

Chris