Trying to understand heritage vs new

[twistedcrankcammer]

The trend for smaller and slender has continued to this day across all product lines, but is still an economic and aesthetic compromise with measureble and audible sound quality loss, although minor in the relative sense. But ALL Klipsch products, even the HD 300 sound better than BOSE, which sells without EVER allowing a consumer to compare to anything else in the same room.

I still prefer the Heritage 3-way over the newer 2-way stuff. Please note that the best HOME decor speaker from Klipsch is the Palladium, which I heard at headquarters a few years back and it is a 3 1/2 way system. Get the idea? My "7 foot stack"system is ALL HORNS and 4-way with the voice coils lined up.

I agree with your compromise point. Tall and slender just doesn't cut it for true to life sound. Although some of the tall and slender products can sound okay in smaller rooms. In most cases, WAF issues mean there is no choice, anyway.

WAF means no choice for PUZZIES!! []

BUT... as with most things in life, size is everything. Unless near field monitoring is desirable, nothing beats big speakers in a big room. I recently heard the new Martin Logan CLX speakers. Good as the smaller Summits are, the bigger CLXs just blow them out of the water. Similarly there is a massive difference between the Magna Planar MG3.6R and the mighty MG20.1. Comparing my sturdy Belles with the stunning Klipschorn reveals a considerable improvement in soundstaging, dynamics and life like sound.

Big IS better.

Not where WIVES are concerned!! [:S]

P,S. You need to have a big room too...

[WMcD]

It is a legit set of questions.

I believe that most of us here were first hooked on the Heritage line years ago. PWK hit a lot "points" in the correct way from a standpoint of physics. That goes for the price point, the size point, and the performance point. The proof of the pudding was in the listening. We had a lot of respect that he backed this up with solid engineering explanations of why his speakers were excellent. He also seemed to rationalize compromises is a measured way. Not everyone can have a three way K-Horn; maybe a three way LS is okay, or a three way CW, or a three way Heresy is okay.

Let me add that it was fairly clear that he did not follow market trends very much or deviate from his own ideas of esthetics. I dare say that he could make enough money and still do things his way. Plywood, cast iron horns, top rate veneer and finishing. Cars had fins and phones had dials. It is, though, correct to observe that the company was making more money on the Heresy than the K-Horn. He knew that.

In more recent times we have the various newer models from the good engineers at Klipsch. There was the conversion to MDF and plastic horns. There was an endorsement of Monster Wire. Woofers with copper cladding were marketed. Small low efficiency speakers which arguably looked good. The old line guys saw these as a sellout and a corruption away from basic principles. It seemed like the hucksterism practiced everywhere. But maybe not so. It is new world.

It is worth mentioning that some of the conversion came with PWK's approval. That is the neo Heritage line of Forte, Chorus, Quartet. A good part of this was the tractrix and passive radiator.

But for a while those went out of production and even the Heritage.

There may have been a nadir. But things came back.The company went into a broader range of products, like home theater. The old timers should not decry this. There is a market for price points and performance points. Who can blame the corporation? -- you serve a market and make money, or do it the old way and go broke and have nothing.

The newer speakers do sound different, in my experience. Part of what is going on is a lot of attention to directionality and interaction with the room. I would not buy into what any salesman has to say about superiority one way or the other.

There is a lot to discuss in technical issues. However, I think we live in a good world. The Heritage is still around. The new units have great technical merit.

Wm McD

[edwinr]

I guess not everyone can buy Klipschorns first up. We all have to start somewhere...

I really like it when friends come over to my dedicated listening room. I get ribbed because I haven't gone multichannel and I watch and listen to movies in 'steam-age' stereo. They reckon their fantastic 5.1 setups, be it Paradigm, Bose, Klipsch, Energy etc. have the technological edge on my 2 channel system. Then they hear my stereo only 3 way, tube driven horn setup...

I have never failed to elicit comments like; 'Wow!' 'OMG!' 'I didn't realize!' 'I have to buy something like this!' And so on and so forth.

In saying that, I guess some of the better quality 5.1 systems go someway towards offering a taste of the 2 channel big speaker sound by putting small satellite speakers in various positions around the room. They partly recreate the ambiance and room filling sound of really big stereo systems. If I had just a small speaker 2 channel system, I wouldn't be happy.

Many of the new tall and slender products do sound okay when compared with others of their ilk. But when compared with true full range systems, they sound... I don't know, they still sound kind of SMALL, I guess.

[pmsummer]

There may have been a nadir. But things came back.The company went into a broader range of products, like home theater. The old timers should not decry this. There is a market for price points and performance points. Who can blame the corporation? -- you serve a market and make money, or do it the old way and go broke and have nothing.

The newer speakers do sound different, in my experience. Part of what is going on is a lot of attention to directionality and interaction with the room. I would not buy into what any salesman has to say about superiority one way or the other.

There is a lot to discuss in technical issues. However, I think we live in a good world. The Heritage is still around. The new units have great technical merit.

Wm McD

Preach it, Brother. Amen.

[Colin]

The Fisher is an excellent receiver, so says my experience

and Stereophile magazine. Big ole horns are cheap to the market because they

are big, people think that the drivers, like new cone speakers, may have been

worked hard, and the models are not so popular anymore. Generally, you can get

far more speaker in the used market than you can in the new market. There is no

comparison between a new Reference model bookshelf speaker and a big ole used

Heritage horn for the same money. Typically, the Heritage models will give you

wider soundstage, higher efficiency, heavier cabinets and more shallow

impedance dips.

Absolutely go hear the other system regardless of whether or not you are

interested in those speakers or not. You will definitely learn something.

You can start with Khorns. Mine were $1K. LaScalas can be found for $500.

[ClaudeJ1]

The Fisher is an excellent receiver, so says my experience
and Stereophile magazine. Big ole horns are cheap to the market because they
are big, people think that the drivers, like new cone speakers, may have been
worked hard, and the models are not so popular anymore. Generally, you can get
far more speaker in the used market than you can in the new market. There is no
comparison between a new Reference model bookshelf speaker and a big ole used
Heritage horn for the same money. Typically, the Heritage models will give you
wider soundstage, higher efficiency, heavier cabinets and more shallow
impedance dips.



Absolutely go hear the other system regardless of whether or not you are
interested in those speakers or not. You will definitely learn something.



You can start with Khorns. Mine were $1K. LaScalas can be found for $500.

Hmmmm, well maybe if you wait over a year and pounce on a local deal for beat up stuff. I sold my non-matching black pair of garage lacquered LaScalas for $600 and my Walnut Oiled Khorns for $2,000, so I think your numbers are about half of the going rate, but then again, the economy and opportunities differe in different parts of the country. Shipping is the great price equalizer IMHO.

[dtel]

I have been lucky enough to hear probably 75% of every model Klipsch has produced and overall from the Quintets and in ceiling to palladiums, Jubs and MWM's they all have somewhat similar sound.

Something not talked about much is " voicing " of a speaker, I think there is alot to be said about the way speaker companies voice there speakers, some are kind of dull and muted and other are more forward and live. Every model of Klipsch I have heard have had a more forward live sound, I know a lot of that is from horns but not all of it.

When a company/ engineer tries to voice a design do they just use there own opinion on familiar music or is there some kind of set things they shoot for ? It can't be just by set goals and computer programs, can it ? I would think someone's ear has to come into play somewhere down the line.

[edwinr]

Something not talked about much is " voicing " of a speaker, I think there is alot to be said about the way speaker companies voice there speakers, some are kind of dull and muted and other are more forward and live...

I believe most reputable loudspeaker manufacturers have a 'reference' loudspeaker they use to voice their products. The voicing of the reference product should have been based on 'live' sound, real instruments, the human voice, and such like.

It's a very interesting subtopic you have raised, dtel.

Perhaps we might have a comment from Klipsch...

[garyrc]

RE: voicing

I have the impression that my 82 Khorns had hotter high ends (K77 range) than either my AK4 upgraded Khorns, or my c 2005 Belle. Both the Belle and the AK4 Khorns sound like the tweeters were turned down a bit, with the Belle tweeter lower than the Khorn AK4. . Whether this sounds better or worse than my '82 Khorns depends on the recording. Maybe it's just the filtering out of the K55 above-range anomaly and the steeper crossover to the tweeter, though. I noticed Stereophile complained that the treble was a little "reticent" in the La Scala 3, even though they liked it a lot otherwise. So ... was there a re-voicing of some of the Heritage line in the last few years?

[dtel]

It could be the diaphragms, I don't know about the LaScala but the Cornwall lll has the mid and high freq driver made of Titanium .

[Yura]

In all honesty - I've tried listening to Heritage line and it just wasn't for me. On the other hand I've got the RF-7s and they are the most wonderful speakers I've ever had. So it's not just the components that make a line better in asbolute, measurable terms, some people are more predisposed towards certain qualities of the sound.

[twistedcrankcammer]

In all honesty - I've tried listening to Heritage line and it just wasn't for me. On the other hand I've got the RF-7s and they are the most wonderful speakers I've ever had. So it's not just the components that make a line better in asbolute, measurable terms, some people are more predisposed towards certain qualities of the sound.

Very true! Although I personally don't understand it, some prefer the sound of Blose speakers for example, and while I feel B&W has a softer sound that is more colored then articulate, some prefer that sound over accurate reproduction, JMO....

Roger

[ClaudeJ1]

In all honesty - I've tried listening to Heritage line and it just wasn't for me. On the other hand I've got the RF-7s and they are the most wonderful speakers I've ever had. So it's not just the components that make a line better in asbolute, measurable terms, some people are more predisposed towards certain qualities of the sound.

Very true! Although I personally don't understand it, some prefer the sound of Blose speakers for example, and while I feel B&W has a softer sound that is more colored then articulate, some prefer that sound over accurate reproduction, JMO....

Roger

Whether 2, 3, 5, or 7 channels, all speakers are vacuous compared to a live acoustic perfomance, symphony being the ultimate test, requiring wide spacing of loudspeakers with a fill channel in the center to get as "real" as possible. PWK re iterated that on into us based on the 1933 broadcast of live vs. reproduced featuring Leopold Stockowski conducting. It's also the only record he owned (saw it myself). All others were his own 2 mike recordings on reel to reel.

All loudspeakers, in that sense suck, so you get the ones that suck the least to you.....the ones that make the nicest noise, and you live with your own illusion, which can be a very good illusion indeed.

[sheltie dave]

Guys, the original poster has left the building, and never attempted to contact us to come over for a listen. It's all part of the deafening silence...

[cjgeraci]

What David said. He has plenty of options in this area if he wants to form his own impressions with his own ears.

But 'nada.

Carl.

[Frank5]

original poster did not leave the building....I have been apreciating and absorbing....lurking..

Do not have room for k-horns or lasala setup :-(

I've spent much time perched between K-horns, many years ago.

Shopping craigs list, etc with the goal being to score some Forte II's, Quartet's, or Heresy in that order of priority.

I repaired my old AR speakers so i have been enjoying the reworked fisher 500c (puts the yamaha to shame).

I plan more follow ups after i get back from a week off work and get my kid back to college.

[edwinr]

My favorite non Heritage speakers were/are the KG 5.5's, of which my brother is now the proud owner. They were followed by some Heritage speakers all of which were much better than the KG speakers. I first had an older pair of Klipschorns, then a pair of Heresy IIs before I settled on my brand new Belles. The most surprising were the Heresys. I was warned off the Heresys by some, but these 'little' 3 ways sounded fantastic - even without a sub. I have never heard the Heresy IIIs. If they are an improvement on the previous model, they should be in contention for someone with a smaller listening room. With the Heresy IIIs, you can have Heritage and 'new'. I like the cherry finish:

[Frank5]

i am back, well over a year since i posted the heritage vs new question. i got some heresy's 1980 isth. i love them. my fisher loves them and they love the fisher. thank everyone for joining in on the original thread. They have a damaged cone on one woofer, so eventually it will need to be replaced...am now in heritage heaven.

[dtel]

Glad your back, nice setup. [Y]

If the damage is the dust cover or even the cone, if it's not real bad it can be fixed pretty easily.

[Frank5]

the cone on one woofer is in pretty bad shape, former owner's cat did a job on it. it does not rattle or buzz, but there are a few cat claw size holes and scratchs in it. i bought them anyway as the price was right AND, more important, they are walnut, with Perfect finish, grills, logos....so they can live in the family room, and be tweaked when time and budget allow.

i found this place that wants a $65 (plus shipping) which seems very reasonable for all that is involved.

http://www.simplyspeakers.com/klipsch-speaker-repair.html

so, the question is: recone? if so, where? New K-28's (Heresy-III types) from Klipsh, Or the CW-1228's from Bob Crites.