Heresy bass performance..

[heresy]

does anyone know if the heresy II has a better bass performance than the the heresy I ?

[PrestonTom]

I have owned both, although I have not done a side-by-side comparison. The bass response seems about the same. The cabinets do not have a strong bass.

The simplist things you can do are 1) make sure the cabinet is on the floor and near the wall(s) ---- a corner is best. The walls (boundaries) will help, 2) get a small sub-woofer or two. They don't need to be expensive.

[djk]

A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB).

A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB).

A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB).

A while back I presented a conversion for the Heresy using a stock Eminence woofer that extends the bass to 37hz for the Heresy, and keeps the sensitivity around the stock level. The woofer is not inexpensive (about $180 from Parts Express), but it goes much deeper than stock, and has much more output too.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/132965/1349326.aspx#1349326

[LarryC]

DJK (is it Dennis?), in idle curiosity on my part, is there a 15" that would be better than the K-33E for K-horn bass and lower middle range, in terms of clarity and sounding even more like music? That would go with the AK-4?

My ideal is the amazing IMO midrange clarity and realistic musical sound of the EV 15WK. I even found a pair once on E-bay and sub'd them for my K's 33E's. The bass and lower midrange was amazing IMO. However, the response curve sounded way off, plus an EMI 60-Hz problem seemed to be greatly magnified, so I eventually sold them.

Any ideas or observations? Thanks!

The 15WK's outstanding midrange as high as 1 kHz transformed the early Shorthorns and Cornwalls IMHO.

Larry

[ClaudeJ1]

does anyone know if the heresy II has a better bass performance than the the heresy I ?

I remember Jim Hunter telling me, back in 1985 that they put in a new woofer that went a teeny bit lower into the Heresy II and that the hardest part was designing a better tweeter than a K77.I have owned both and each is subtly different from the other and both excellent to my ears. Not sure I would tell much difference in the bass, which both need some boost or a subwoofer. I recently measured my Heresy 1.5's and they roll off below 100 Hz. when not in corners.

[Islander]

I've not heard an original Heresy, but the Heresy II (I have some of those) can be easily upgraded to Heresy III spec, and H3s definitely have more and better bass (and treble) than H2s.

[djk]

They can make a 4 ohm version of the TD15M for you. The cone has very good midrange, and is useable to about 2Khz.

http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=56&osCsid=99bfdfde4d7007fcc3729aa89a2161b2

[heresy]

okay thanks everyone for the replies.

[Groomlakearea51]

The first key to effective bass on the Heresy-I (and the Heresy-II), regardless of placement considerations, is to make sure the cabinet is sealed. The older H-I's "leak" around the rear panel and often in gaps in the braces around the motor board. The H-II "leaks" around the speaker gaskets. The second important issue is to make sure all of the connections and capacitors are good. And the third thing, unfortunately, is to consider replacing the woofers, especially if they are over 15-20 years old. Let's look at it in three "phases" of things to do.

Phase-I:

H-I: Remove the rear panel. Place speaker on front, face down. On the reverse side of the motor board at each brace piece, make sure there are no gaps wehre they join. Use a good quality woodworkers glue (or you can use a latex based bathroom caulk) and seal the gaps. Next run a "bead" of the sealant along the edge of each brace where it is against the cabinet panels. Allow to dry. Next, lay the cabinet on a side and do the same thing with the brace on that side. Allow that to dry, then do each other side, top and bottom. Next, turn speaker cabinet back on face and put a 1/2" wide by 1/8" thick strip of speaker gasket tape along the face of the brace on which the rear panel sits. Leave no gaps. Allow everything to sit 24 hours (important if you used a caulk to seal the braces and brace gaps). Reinstall the rear panel. Now that it is sealed... you should be getting below 50Hz.

H-II: Carefully remove the drivers (mark the wires with tape to avoid reinstalling "out of phase") and the crossover unit. Be careful with the crossover unit; you must slide it forward, lift and then slide it back to remove it. Remove all old gasket material thoroughly. Clean the surfaces on the wood and install new speaker gasket tape as described above. Reinstall the drivers, crosstorquing the screws as you go. Do not use a power driver, do it by hand...

Phase-II:

If you have not done so already, the capacitors in the crossovers need to be replaced, especially if the speaker is over 10-15 years old, and in the case of the Heresy-I's, an absolute as the old Aerovox oil filled caps are likely dried out. The other thing that should be done on both models, is to remove all driver "clips", leads, etc (unless soldered), and clean the connections with some "De-oxit". Re-seat all clips and connections and make sure they are tight, especially the screws on the crossover boards in the Heresy-I. Slightly loosen the screws on the "back side" in that case, and put a very small drop of "de-oxit" on the connectors, then re-tighten.

Phase-III:

The old Heresy-I's K-22 woofers, while very good..., are now, for the most part, over 30 years old. Two things have occurred; first is that the frames are probably not quite in alignment with the rest of the driver. This is due to gravity and weight. Solution? Rotate them 180 degrees and allow weight and gravity to begin to "sag" them in the opposite direction. Second thing is that the cone material is no longer as stiff as when made. Just age and the bazillion vibrations and flexing over the lifetime of the speaker. There is really no solution to fix them per se. The better solution is a new K-28 (Heresy-III), part number: 121225 from Klipsch Parts; or the Bob Crites CW-1228 woofer. Both are direct "drop in" replacements for both the K-22 and the Heresy-II's K-24 (no longer manufactured).

That should bring them back to original specs, and you will see a noticeable improved bass response. Heresy's should be at least 3" off most floors if they have carpet. They should be in corners if available, otherwise at least 6-8 feet apart, and about 2 inches from the walls.

Hope that is of some assistance.

[H]

[Malcolm]

I think the most significant improvement in Heresy woofers over the years has been increased xmax. The latest ones can go a little lower, and are a little more efficient, but they can play low frequencies louder before reaching their mechanical limits than the earlier ones.

FWIW I haven't seen the old oil filled capacitors dry out unless the seal failed. And I haven't seen many of those, either Aerovox or any of the other brands they used. But they do seem to have high ESR which would be a good reason to replace them. Also, I haven't seen problems with the baskets sagging, but the spiders and surrounds can take a set if that is what you meant.

[Groomlakearea51]

FWIW I haven't seen the old oil filled capacitors dry out unless the seal failed. And I haven't seen many of those, either Aerovox or any of the other brands they used. But they do seem to have high ESR which would be a good reason to replace them. Also, I haven't seen problems with the baskets sagging, but the spiders and surrounds can take a set if that is what you meant.

Yes, that's correct about the ESR. On almost every oil can from early Heritage (all K'horns, Belles, Cornwalls, LaScalas and Heresy's used the Aeorovox cans until the introduction of the Heresy-II and the later Cornwalls), the ESR was really high, including a pair a couple years ago that looked like they were new. I started taking cans apart just to look a couple years ago. Even the ones that did not "leak" invariably either had little oil in them or just "sludge"... Where it went or what happened to it? Probably actually did leak, but just very slowly and since the seal was not intact, just dried up.

Yes the spiders and surrounds have taken a "set", and I generally just call that a "sag", as that's the simplest way to describe the overall effect of something having a constant weight pulling on the top side and pushing on the bottom side.

[H]

[CECAA850]

Yes the spiders and surrounds have taken a "set", and I generally just call that a "sag", as that's the simplest way to describe the overall effect of something having a constant weight pulling on the top side and pushing on the bottom side.

I have the same problem. Stupid gravity.

[ClaudeJ1]

okay thanks everyone for the replies.

I also found the title of this thread to be an Oxymoron (PWK fave words).

[sunnysal]

where is Tom BrennAn when you need him? LOL

IMHIO the heresy is a bit bass shy by nature (and some would say strident on the top end as well!), some improvement can be wrought via tone controls and room placment. by you can't make a silk purse from...well you know.

Maybe a subwoofer added to the system could work.

T

[Malcolm]

A good sub does wonders...

[Ironsave]

A good sub does wonders...

Very true.

I have already done the caps and resealing the cabs. My bass performance improved very much.

The sub knocks it out of the ballpark. Sometimes I listen with the sub; often times without......

[davestef]

if you need a sub for the heresy's, do you not need a sub for the cornwalls? im stuck between the two. i have a small sub, the one that comes with the promedia 2.1, which i can hook up to my receiver, but i dont know if it will make a difference with the heresy

[garyrc]

if you need a sub for the heresy's, do you not need a sub for the cornwalls? im stuck between the two. i have a small sub, the one that comes with the promedia 2.1, which i can hook up to my receiver, but i dont know if it will make a difference with the heresy

Get the Cornwalls. If you know for sure you will be getting a sub, and can afford them, get La Scala IIs (if you win the lottery, consider Klipschorns or Jubs [])

A good, somewhat expensive sub will provide bass extension to the Cornwalls (i.e., they will reach deeper, maybe to 20 Hz instead of 35 - 40 Hz, but the Cornwalls have good, punchy bass on their own.

The Promedia will protest violently with high SPL or high bass content. We have one in our bedroom, and we have had to turn the sub down with some movies. As computer speakers they are way above average, with a nice amp and an adequate sub, but not for serious music with a lot of bass. I used Heresy IIs at SFSU for one year, and never heard them protest, nor did they as surrounds in our main theater system, but in the latter application they are set on "small" which rolls off their bass starting at 80 Hz, and sends it to a pretty good sub.