"Timbre Match"

[Big Dog]

I am still trying to understand this whole thing about "Timbre Match" for the front speakers.

First of all, if money was not an issue, then we would just buy the "top of the line' and be done. Of course, we are one the forum, so we either have limited money or would like to use it carefully. I want to spend the least amount of money, but get the best sound for my HOME THEATERS.

I am using a RC-62 II center with two KG 4.5s on the front. With 90% of the sound coming out of the center during a movie, I can't figure out why the one scene where the camera pans across the front and the pitch changes from the Left front to the center to the right front is such a big deal. This doesn't happen that often.

Please fill me in.

[Youthman]

I am using a RC-62 II center with two KG 4.5s on the front. With 90% of the sound coming out of the center during a movie, I can't figure out why the one scene where the camera pans across the front and the pitch changes from the Left front to the center to the right front is such a big deal. This doesn't happen that often.

If it doesn't bother you, then it's just not a big deal to you. Some just prefer for that transition from one speaker to the other to be seamless.

As far as center channel percentage....I've heard different percentages from 60% - 80%.

[cornfedksboy]

Klipsch speakers are dynamic, detailed and directional IMO. I like the way they sound! That said, many modern speakers are less directional and surround you with a broader soundstage than Klipsch (but sacrafice some of the detail). One way to compensate for the Klipsch soundstage is to timbre match your speakers. This will decrease the sound localization from the speakers without compromising the detail and dynamics. You shouldn't be able to tell at what point the sound moved from one speaker to the next, only that it moved from right to left.

FWIW, my speakers aren't timbe matched.

[DrWho]

Have you ever compared against a system that is perfectly timbre matched? One thing I've learned about this hobby is that things usually don't seem significant until you experience the difference. Does that mean our egos over-emphasize the things we can detect as a sort of pride in being able to detect it? Sometimes I wonder if that might be the case, and other times I wonder if ignorance truly is bliss....

If you're happy where you're at, then I'd say don't change anything. It's only when looking to upgrade that I would consider my options and weigh them against the things I think might improve the enjoyment.

[twistedcrankcammer]

I am still trying to understand this whole thing about "Timbre Match" for the front speakers.

First of all, if money was not an issue, then we would just buy the "top of the line' and be done. Of course, we are one the forum, so we either have limited money or would like to use it carefully. I want to spend the least amount of money, but get the best sound for my HOME THEATERS.

I am using a RC-62 II center with two KG 4.5s on the front. With 90% of the sound coming out of the center during a movie, I can't figure out why the one scene where the camera pans across the front and the pitch changes from the Left front to the center to the right front is such a big deal. This doesn't happen that often.

Please fill me in.

Big Dog,

You have it wrong on two counts. Being a member here has nothing to do with not having money or being frugal, AND timbre matching your speakers has nothing to do with the depth of your pockets.

There are members here who have very little to invest, or build their own, and there are members here that have $35,000 in just a pair of speakers. We have all types here from Doctors, Lawyers, to Electrical engineers, to electricians, to those in the service, or truck drivers, to just about any level you can immagine, both self made and / or educated.

We have guys that have totally matched surround systems with bargain Forte's for well under $1000 total investment. I own 7 identical Pro-Klipschorns, and I bought an RF-7 converted to a center channel to better match my moms speakers than the RC-7 for a perfect match.

There are guys here with outrageous systems that have had members over often that don't have alot. The forum transends alot of that stuff for many of us, because we like meeting other people that "get it", that understand us and our passion for music and all things Klipsch, even if our musical tastes do not coincide, many of us will listen to find another piece that can really show off our systems capabilities.

Roger

[Olorin]

I am still trying to understand this whole thing about "Timbre Match" for the front speakers.

First of all, if money was not an issue, then we would just buy the "top of the line' and be done. Of course, we are one the forum, so we either have limited money or would like to use it carefully. I want to spend the least amount of money, but get the best sound for my HOME THEATERS.

I am using a RC-62 II center with two KG 4.5s on the front. With 90% of the sound coming out of the center during a movie, I can't figure out why the one scene where the camera pans across the front and the pitch changes from the Left front to the center to the right front is such a big deal. This doesn't happen that often.

Please fill me in.

You hit on about three different issues here.

First, you're conflating the COST of a set of speakers with the MATCH of the set's members. Those are two different issues. As Roger mentioned, there are guys with under $1K all in who have matched sets, and guys with $35,000 mains who have matched sets. Cost, in and of itself, bears little relationship to how well a set of speakers works and plays together.

The third issue you highlight is that you don't think it's a big deal. That's fine -- that's a personal decision. I would respectfully suggest, however, that one person's lack of concern for a thing doesn't make another person's concern for that same thing trivial, silly, or misguided.

If I'm reading you right, your core question is really "Why does it matter?" I think I can illuminate my point of view on this best if I can answer your question with a couple questions of my own.

Would you hook up your RC-62 II to the left channel and a KG 4.5 to the right channel, then use that as your primary music listening rig? Why or why not? Would you understand someone's preferring to use two matching speakers in a stereo pair? Why or why not? Does it make sense to think of a center channel as the third speaker in a frontal array? If so, is it reasonable for one to apply the same matching criteria for a third speaker in a frontal array that one applies to the left and right speakers in a stereo pair?

[rplace]

Olorin, are you saying my Khorn-Right, Academy-Center and Bose 901-Left with with two TV speakers for surrounds and transistor radio speakers for backs is less than optimal for 7.1??? [][] At least my projector/screen is BIG!

[dtel]

Olorin, are you saying my Khorn-Right, Academy-Center and Bose 901-Left with with two TV speakers for surrounds and transistor radio speakers for backs is less than optimal for 7.1??? At least my projector/screen is BIG!

Very funny, BUT still better than blose all around.

[RichardP]

Timbre Match

Oh...I thought you were talking about something else entirely....nevermind.

[dtel]

a couple questions of my own.

Would you hook up your RC-62 II to the left channel and a KG 4.5 to the right channel, then use that as your primary music listening rig? Why or why not? Would you understand someone's preferring to use two matching speakers in a stereo pair? Why or why not? Does it make sense to think of a center channel as the third speaker in a frontal array?

Good point.

It all goes back to if it does not bother you don't worry about it.

It does make a difference in the sound but it depends on how much it matters to you your the only person you have to please in the end.

To me I would rather have a big enough center first and worry about a perfect match second, a tiny center sounds terrible to me.

Also good point DrWho.

[dtel]

Timbre Match

Oh...I thought you were talking about something else entirely....nevermind.

Richard, now whenever I cut a tree down I scream TIMBREEE, because 90% of the sound comes from directly in front of me but the echo from the left and right is a perfect match, it just fits. [:$]

[Chris A]

With 90% of the sound coming out of the center during a movie, I can't figure out why the one scene where the camera pans across the front and the pitch changes from the Left front to the center to the right front is such a big deal. This doesn't happen that often...Please fill me in.

For me, "timbre matching" is achieved when you cannot localize the soundtrack to a particular speaker. Floyd Toole also discusses this subject briefly in his book.

Here is a link within that book discussing "timbre matching". Note that "HRTF" is an acronym ("Head-Related Transfer Function") for human hearing perception due to the shape of the human head and ears that gives a listener the cues necessary to extract direction of sound arrival.

By the way, on the movies that have watched on my HT, I typically don't perceive 90% of the sound image coming from the center speaker only. However, do perceive a center image across the front of the room.

Chris

[Big Dog]

Thanks for the suggestion on the "Sound Reproduction" book by Floyd Toole. I have one on order from Amazon.

I am starting to understand this "Timbre Matching" thing, but still struggle with the trade off of going with at better Center with the sacrifice of not having a "Timbre Match".

[T2K]

Just use your center speaker only, you will be getting 90% of the content and you won't have to spend so much time worring about how it will sound on paper.

[Big Dog]

A high percentage of movie sound (dialogue and effects) does come from the center channel. If you want to debate the exact percentage maybe that is a separate thread.

My point was that I want to use my existing tower speakers (KG 4.5) in my Home Theater, but don't want to have a center channel speaker that requires me to read lips to understand the speech during a movie. The RC-62 II is a great center channel with regard to speech intelligibility. Should I sacrifice speech intelligibility for the seamless transistion of the sound across the front 3 speakers? To get a Timber Match, I will either look for a Timbre Match for the KG 4.5s or purchase new towers to match the center.

Would the Timbre match for the KG 4.5s sound as good as the RC-62 II?

Would the RF-82 IIs, RF-62IIs or RB-82 IIs make a difference up front with the RC-62 II center over the KG 4.5s?

[dtel]

If I'm reading you right, your core question is really "Why does it matter?" I think I can illuminate my point of view on this best if I can answer your question with a couple questions of my own.

Would you hook up your RC-62 II to the left channel and a KG 4.5 to the right channel, then use that as your primary music listening rig? Why or why not? Would you understand someone's preferring to use two matching speakers in a stereo pair? Why or why not? Does it make sense to think of a center channel as the third speaker in a frontal array? If so, is it reasonable for one to apply the same matching criteria for a third speaker in a frontal array that one applies to the left and right speakers in a stereo pair?

I think Olorin asked some questions that were never answered, unliss I missed it ?

The answer to most of these are the same as what your asking to be explained.

Of course you would never use different speakers for L & R.......so what makes it ok for a different center ? Facts do not change to fit whatever you want to use as mains, the center is part of the mains in Ht, you can't get around that.

You said;

" Should I sacrifice speech intelligibility for the seamless transistion of the sound across the front 3 speakers? To get a Timber Match, I will either look for a Timbre Match for the KG 4.5s or purchase new towers to match the center."

But if you like it what else matters, not what a book says or general thinking, you either like the way it sounds or not ?

If you like it do not change it, some people think I am nuts for having giant speakers, sorry but untill I move in with you my speakers size is not something anyone else has a vote on. []

[Big Dog]

The analogy about using different speaker for the Front Left and Front Right is doesn't make sense to me.

Here are the Questions:

Would the Timbre match for the KG 4.5s sound as good as the RC-62 II?

Would the RF-82 IIs, RF-62IIs or RB-82 IIs make a difference up front with the RC-62 II center over the KG 4.5s?

[dtel]

The analogy about using different speaker for the Front Left and Front Right is doesn't make sense to me.

Would you use a different sounding speaker for the front L & R, no because they sound different. Timbre is like the voice of the speaker, the tone, how it sounds. When they design speakers they "voice" them.

Timbre
Pronounced "tam-burr." The quality of a sound related to its harmonic structure. Timbre is what gives a voice or instrument its sonic signature — for instance, why a trumpet and a saxophone sound different when they play the same note.

Here are the Questions:

Would the Timbre match for the KG 4.5s sound as good as the RC-62 II? Timbre match does not really have anything to do with a speakers quality, a set of 5 bose are timbre matched......

Would the RF-82 IIs, RF-62IIs or RB-82 IIs make a difference up front with the RC-62 II center over the KG 4.5s? I would think yes, but how much and at what cost is the question. And if you really like the sound of the KG's that could be a problem ?

[Olorin]

A high percentage of movie sound (dialogue and effects) does come from the center channel. If you want to debate the exact percentage maybe that is a separate thread.

My point was that I want to use my existing tower speakers (KG 4.5) in my Home Theater, but don't want to have a center channel speaker that requires me to read lips to understand the speech during a movie. The RC-62 II is a great center channel with regard to speech intelligibility. Should I sacrifice speech intelligibility for the seamless transistion of the sound across the front 3 speakers? To get a Timber Match, I will either look for a Timbre Match for the KG 4.5s or purchase new towers to match the center.

Would the Timbre match for the KG 4.5s sound as good as the RC-62 II?

Would the RF-82 IIs, RF-62IIs or RB-82 IIs make a difference up front with the RC-62 II center over the KG 4.5s?

The KG-2.5V is a competent piece of equipment. What makes you think you'd be sacrificing anything?

Get this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/KLIPSCH-KG-2-5-Single-Center-/260746447509?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3cb5b30a95. If you don't like it, sell it, and if you do like it, keep it. Either way, problem solved and mystery over.

[IndyKlipschFan]

If u had the three speakers up fron the same.... left center n right.... You might be supprized just how nice it does blend = Timbre match.

Some go as far as the sides and rears, with a careful match of a good sub in the same class too.

I have heard a Heresey 5.1 systemthat rocked..... add the sub...and it just blew me away too...

Maybe I am spoiled, but is something to experience a car driving left to center to right........accross the screen then off the camera and it is not wooshh wee whoosh but totally seamless so you can just experience the depth of the movie without any audio distractions. maybe that is it... You get the real depth of the audio with Correct Timbre and I do not care what anyone else sais... you need and do that with the same speakers accross the front to achieve that.

my 2 cents.