49 years ago today

[jhoak]

US President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, TX.

Do you remember where you were and what you were doing?

I was just shy of 6 years old and at my Grandparent's greenhouse. There was an old radio on a shelf over the sink in the work room. They broke in to the broadcast to give the news. I remember my Grandmother sobbing at the news.

I was too young to understand or appreciate the significance of the event but I do remember it taking place all these years later.

[LarryC]

Super-awful weekend, irreplaceable loss and finality of the burial, not at all eased by the greatest U.S. state funeral ever, its unforgettable drums and that great, great military funeral band music that included Chopin's

.

The nation's tragedy was sealed IMO with the assassination of brother Robert five years later and its descent into mindless non-leadership on Vietnam and racial turmoil with Nixon vs. Humphrey.instead of Nixon vs. RFK.

Time 1968: War Abroad, Riots at Home, Fallen Leaders and Lunar Dreams - The Year that Changed the World

[JJkizak]

I was in Sondrestrom, Greenland.

JJK

[CECAA850]

I was home from kindergarden (or possibly 1's grade) with the flu or some other type ailment. I just remember being really sick and that's all that was on TV. All 3 channels!

[rummy]

I was in the second grade at Lenore Kirk Hall elementary in Oak Cliff. The teacher came into the room and she was crying. My brother was in NDCC at Kimball High School in Oak Cliff. There were supposed to march in the procession, but they did not due to the tragedy. When I went downtown working for 37 years, I would drive by the depository every day going home, all those tourists standing around?

[Mallette]

The drums...

Dave

[Don Richard]

I was in class when I was in high school and the announcement came over the school PA system. A lot of people were really bummed out about it.

[Chris A]

US President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, TX...Do you remember where you were and what you were doing.

I was in school in east Arlington (~18 miles distance) in the second grade,

I do remember some very serious stares and whispers amongst teachers. The school just sent everyone home immediately (...for a week as it turned out, due in no small part to the later assassination of the assassin). Civil Defense alerts popped up more often on the tube. The sky was indeed falling.

The backdrop to this was the Cuban Missile Crisis the year before: it was common knowledge that missiles could reach Carswell AFB in Fort Worth (SAC B-52s). A few of my friends had new fallout shelters in their backyards: all that had them made preparations to move into them, IIRC.

Chris

[oscarsear]

I was home sick from school on this day, the 5th grade. I was alone. The story broke and I wanted to talk with somebody. I spent the whole day alone ponderding the unfolding events. That school semester I was responsible for raising the flag each morning. The ceremony for such an event is to raise the flag full staff and then slowly lower it to half staff. As I recall it was for a 30 day period.

[HDBRbuilder]

My father was a Chief Warrant Officer assigned in the Army to 2nd Army Headquarters at Fort Meade, MD. He was the Food Service Officer for the 2nd Army (normally done by a full Colonel). He had been diagnosed with stomach cancer in late September and had 3/4 of his stomach removed in October, then an infection set in, but he survived that and he was back on limited duty just before 22 November.

I was a 5th-grader at Odenton Elementary School, in the auditorium that day when an announcement came over the intercom, but we students couldn't make out what had been said. We were told a few minutes later that school was letting out early and we needed to go to our bus to go home. On the bus, many of the older girls were crying, but most of us did not know why because the teachers had been crying, too, and nobody seemed able to explain anything to us.

When I got off the bus I went home and my mother was crying and told me to go watch the tv and that my father would be home shortly. Once the TV was on and warmed up and I could see it, I found out what had happened. Dad came home and changed into his fatigues from his class A uniform. He said the entire military was on alert and he had to go arrange rations for the soldiers, and he left.

The next few days were weird to say the least. Things had calmed down somewhat by the end of the funeral and my mother had been trying to get Dad to agree to take us to D.C to see the gravesite while the flowers were still on JFK's grave. He finally relented and said that after Thanksgiving dinner was served on post on the 28th, he would take us all to see the grave at Arlington.

The night of the 27th, around 2 AM on the 28th, actually...the phone rang and woke us all up. My father was in the hallway talking on the phone and not very happy! I remember him saying something to the effect of: "Ok, you KEEP THEM THERE, don't let them out, and don't call anybody else! I can't get there until mid morning at the earliest. I will handle this when I get there! OK?" Then he shaved and got into his cook whites and left before 3 AM.

The next time I saw Dad was in the officers' open mess when Mom took us to eat Thanksgiving dinner there around 1:30 PM. He was in his cook whites serving the food.

Here is what had happened: Each mess hall had a different portion of the dinner to cook/prepare as its responsibility. Once it all was finished, it was distributed out to each mess hall to be served for the big Thanksgiving dinner. One mess hall was tasked to cook all the turkeys. The cooks had put them in the ovens and then got drunk and passed out and the turkeys were all burning, with smoke coming out the mess hall exhaust vents... and the MP's on patrol had stopped by and shut everything down and arrested the cooks for being drunk on duty. Then they had called my Dad. He went out and got a 5 ton truck, went to ration break-down and loaded up anough turkeys for the meal and took them to that mess hall and quick-thawed then and cooked them all BY HIMSELF! Once they were all in the ovens, he cleaned up the mess from the burnt turkeys and there was no evidence that anything had gone wrong. After all the turkeys were done and ready for distributon, then picked up...he went to the MP station and dealt with the hungover cooks Basically he told them not a word would ever be spoken of the incident again, unless they did anything to piss him off before his upcoming retirement. They were also all put on self-house-arrest status until the day after Thanksgiving. Then he went to the officers' open mess to oversee the prep and serve dinner.

So, we ate dinner, Dad got changed out of his cook whites, and we piled into the station wagon and he drove us to Arlington...it was overcast, cold and windy, we stood in the really long line that was almost three miles long...walked around the fresh grave of JFK, where they had a plywood box with a propane bottle under it fueling the temporary eternal flame, with astroturf-looking carpet covering the box...all the flowers were there...the USSR arrangement had their flag and our flag and hands shaking in front of them both, all done with flowers...then we continued around the semi-circle walkway and left in the crowd and went home.

You can never forget something like that!

-Andy

[LarryC]

On the losing side is Dean Acheson, General LeMay, and the big collection of insane Strangegloves at RAND armed with dozens of strategies for winning nuclear war.

Why/how Dean Acheson?

[LarryC]

DA represented the faction of extreme militants posing everything from Cuban bombing scenarios all the way up to all out nuclear war with the Soviets. That faction did not prevail in JFK's lifetime.

We seem to be thinking of two different Dean Achesons. DA and Harry Truman crafted the West's durable legacy of containment and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union. (Reagan only gave the appearance of having accomplished that by himself.) Acheson thereby became a target of Republican conservatives, who attacked his supposed "College of cowardly Communist containment."

According to James Chace, a fine and thorough biographer, DA was invited into the secret deliberations around the Cuban Missle Crisis, although now out of office, and took the position that the sites themselves should be destroyed -- NOT even the airfields, let alone other Cuban sites, cities, etc. His rationale was to only destroy the missles before the SU could make them operable, and otherwise not start a war. He just wasn't sure a blockade would work.

DA didn't want an invasion or other bombings, saying he didn't know how we could extricate ourselves. He should have been around for the rest of the century and into this one!

JFK and his cabinet decided on a blockade and it worked. This didn't put DA out in the cold; as you may recall, JFK sent him to inform DeGaulle, who graciously accepted the U.S statement to him as sufficient and said he'd back the U.S. without needing further info.

That just doesn't bear out your description, IMO.

[Daddy Dee]

I remember that day. Was a third grader walking home from school. Unlike most of the classes in my school, at least older grades, did not hear word during the day. I heard it from other school kids walking home. Got home asked my mom. She was a stoic type, unless it was me she was mad with. Can remember watching events the next few days watching all the somber events on TV.

Remember learning one thing about the justice system. After Oswald was ID'd as the shooter and before his murder had asked my dad when he would be "electrocuted." Dad said he would have to have a trial first to determine innocence or guilt. I thought, hmm. Teachable moment, I suppose.

[Chris A]

Edit: Different historians write very different accounts of the motivations and events (cause and effect) based on their worldview, which varies GREATLY from writer to writer.

You also forgot to mention an important pre-existing, precipitating condition, and induced conflict to answer the question..."why?"

Personally, I believe that we will never actually know what happened. I don't think highly of those times and any of the political leadership that got us into those situations. I'm thankful that my children didn't have to grow up under that kind of fear.

Chris

[LarryC]

His rationale was to only destroy the missles before the SU could make them operable

Q:How would that be done exactly?

During the cuban missile crisis, Kennedy convened the "executive committee" (EX-COMM). It consisted of the NSA some cabinet members and others like DA. In short order, the group broke into two opposed camps. One camp was represented by RFK, the other was generally following DA. RFK was after the least confrontational solution possible. If you called it a doivish position that would be fair enough. DA was the hawk, and wanted to express US power to the maximum, just as he desired in the Berlin deal.

• DA hated ExComm as a process. He thought RFK was a dilatante in foreign affairs
• RFK wanted nothing to do with "bombing" anything, or directly confronting the Soviets militarily.
• This idea of "destroying the missiles" directly before they could be setup was DA's central idea. No, he didn't want to make a general bombing of Cuba, but you can't destroy missiles without some form of military attack. Perhaps it could be called "precision bombing," but it would still be on Cuban soil. RFK wanted no such thing.
• In the end, RFK's group won the day with the blockade, and DA's ideas lost out. That whole cabal of tough militarists, anglophile empire builders and RAND kooks were shoved aside during most of the JFK presidency, and they were not happy. They were always opposed to JFK's policies as being too weak. And, they hated him beyond measure for the Bay of Pigs.

Historians of course all have some particular worldview. The accounts regarding DA very quite widely. "Out in the cold?" Well, in political terms, it's fair to say JFK was having none of what that faction was serving.

Edit: Different historians write very different accounts of the motivations and events (cause and effect) based on their worldview, which varies GREATLY from writer to writer.

I'm not deeply read on the Cuban Missle Crisis, didn't read Thirteen Days for example, but am satisfied with the amount of detail, apparent objectivity, and supportive documentation in James Chace's bio of Acheson.

Chace's discussion pretty much lines up with yours, identifying the two camps in the ExCom. He cites a Bundy comment that the difference between DA's sharply limited missle site strike and the Joint Chief's air war were never adequately explored. Perhaps the group concluded, like you, that any difference wasn't practical or real in practice.

However, in this thread I initially responded to the idea that DA was one of the nuclear mad-bomber camp, and that's what I still take issue with. Acheson was on record as supporting buildup and reliance on conventional forces rather than nuclear weapons, and disagreeing with "massive retaliation" as propounded by the JF Dulles camp. "It was folly to base strategy on the threat or use of nuclear weapons."

So, I think there was little alignment between DA vs. Curtis LeMay and the other madmen you mentioned. Do you have a link? Chace

Besides, Chace and his publisher had the wisdom to put his Karsh portrait on the cover.

http://www.amazon.com/Acheson-Secretary-State-Created-American/dp/1416548653/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353884338&sr=1-1&keywords=chace+acheson'>

[JJkizak]

PBS had a nice documentary about the crisis, about how one Russian stopped a sub commander from firing a nuclear torpedo to start a nuclear war.

JJK

[Mallette]

My opinion then, and now, was that the administration chose to use nuclear force. It has become clear since then that the Soviet nuclear threat had been oversold to the public...as it was for the entire cold war...and the Soviets knew they'd lose big in a nuclear exchange.

In a conventional tactical sense, Acheson's analysis was correct. In a strategic sense, JFK's decision was the right one and a lot less risky than it appeared at the time. The objective was to get the missles out of Cuba and JFK reasoned correctly that there was no need to expose US airmen to harm's way to achieve that objective. No idea whether JFK had read Sun Tzu, but his approach would have been approved by the old master.

Soviet policy was not significantly different from Russian policy for the previous several hundred years and, in spite of the bluster and boasting, largely defensive.

Dave

[LarryC]

I don't think nuclear warfare makes a bit of sense if we want to preserve the planet. I agree with all your points that I have knowledge of, Dave. JFK was right in one respect -- he (and Eisenhower whom he consulted) correctly guessed the Soviet Union would not retaliate on a blockade.

One more point about Acheson -- most would say he left a magnificent legacy as implementer of Lend-Lease in WW II, head US delegate to Bretton Woods, chairman of the committee preparing international control of atomic energy, designer of NATO. and primary architect and developer of the working framework for containing the SU which worked out so well some 50 years later.

LeMay and other pro-nuclear warriors had nowhere near that kind of legacy.

[jhoak]

It was NOT my intent when I made the original post for this thread to become "political". It was nothing more than a "where where you?" and "do you remember?" kind of thing.

That said I truly believe that the policy of "MAD" (mutually assured destruction) has got to be the stupist thing I've ever heard of.

There are no "winners" in any nuclear exchange. Only lots and lots of dead civilians.

The sooner we as a species banish thermo-nucular weapons from this planet the better for mankind.

[Mallette]

"Preserving the planet" wasn't an issue at the time. The balance of power was so tilted towards the US as to make any Soviet threats quite hollow. Realistic estimates had their ICBM capabilities in the dozens at best, and whether they'd actually get off the ground or hit a target open to question. We already had enough reliable ICBM and 3 Polaris boomers that would have incapacitated the whole country. In fact, the reason the USSR wanted to get those missiles into Cuba was that they couldn't really threaten us (defend themselves, in their way of looking at it) with their capabilities and wouldn't be able to do so for several years.

The US objective was simply to get the missiles out of Cuba. Blowing them up was one way, but messy, prone to scatter radioactive debris, and being launched against a small country like Cuba hardly likely to win friends and influence people.

The blockade achieved precisely the same thing, while increasing US stature without significant risk. As a person in their teens and living through it I can say the butt pucker factor was awful. However, I think the administration's only real fear was whether or not the adversary was insane or not. They weren't, and defence of mother Russia has always been the prime directive for them and they weren't about to risk anything over this deal.

I don't credit JFK with extraordinary insight or brilliance here. If it were a Risk game most folks would do the same thing. He had all the intel and held all the cards.

Dave