Tubes vs. SS

[juniper8]

In the last 3 yrs, I have tried, a Nak ta4, an onk M504 P304 combo , a Flame linear 700b 4000 combo, a Pioneer sx something, a Technics sa 700, Yamaha mx1000 c85 combo, totl JVC axz 1010tn, Panasonic saxr 55 and 45, a Carver c2 with a Kenwood amp.... These all fell short to a lowly late fifties Pilot SA-260 SP 210 combo..... then again, this is probably, just old mid-fi S.S. gear... My biggest fears with tubes were the bass response, distortion, hum, seperation, wooley sound, quickness, accuracy.... I no longer have these fears.... Tubes can be very good!!!

[Mallette]

Can you imagine the heat produced by an 8 channel tubed tape recorder or a 24 channel tube mixing console?

Some of us much prefer music with no mixers involved at all. Two mikes, place where you ears want to be. And, yes, I listen to all forms of recorded music and some of it was original "solid state..." That is, no electricity at all. Acoustic recordings. Some are incredible. Of course, many just hear surface noise. I hear music, great music that is in no way improved by a further abstraction layer of modern technology.

On a little newer side, one of my favorite recordings both in terms of performance and engineering as well, is a 1956 stereo recording made at the Gabrieli Festival held that year at St. Marks in Venice. Tube based Ampex tape recorders and early Westrex stereo vinyl pressing. Does the "antiquated" technology help or harm? I won't say one way or ther other, but I can state without any reservation that it's as good or better sounding than the famous E. Power Biggs "Glory of Gabrieli" recording made a decade later.

"Tis a poor workman indeed who blames his tools." Recording engineering is both art and science. Some early recordings can be far more exciting and satisfying than the "latest and greatest" when MUSIC is what one is after. I'd rather hear my Paul Whiteman Orchestra with George Gershwin at the piano recording of "Rhapsody in Blue" with all its noise and mono sound than any modern performance of that piece I've ever heard.

It depends on what one is listening for, not through.

Dave

[Don Richard]

Have you been recording with tube equipment lately? Or even with analog tape, lately?

[Don Richard]

Funny how some dismiss Tubes as "old" outdated technology while at the same time embrass technology that predates Tubes or SS...ie: HORNS

The types of horns used today are different than those used in pre-WWII times. Tractrix, Constant Directivity, Conical profiles, Unity horns, etc. have replaced multicells and exponential HF horns in modern designs. Similarly, solid state devices have replaced tubes in amplification equipment overwhelmingly.

How is saying that one prefers solid state equipment over tubes bashing anyone? Why so defensive?

[Mallette]

Have you been recording with tube equipment lately? Or even with analog tape, lately?

Last Sunday night, Don. Seriously.

The only reason I didn't take my Sony TC-765 along was its just too heavy for me to handle anymore. Using Ampex 457 Grandmaster tape and DBX 2:1 noise reduction you get the noise free dynamic range (over 90db) of digital along with what I will call the "perceived" qualities of digital. Makes a great "alibi" recorder as its far less likely to glitch or be subject to induced EMF/RF noises.

Download available in a thread near you.

Dave

[mark1101]

I have both and use both. I only have Klipsch horn speakers so my comments are relative to that.......and my room. I do like the tube sound on the upper frequencies and the ss clean tight power on the low frequencies. I look for early ss amps that had designs similar to and sound like tube amps so I don't have to buy tubes and maintain tube amps. I prefer tubes in the preamp instead of the power amp.

[Don Richard]

I had a 765 years ago. I didn't keep it long, way too noisy for me (60 dB s/n). You would need to run noise reduction ( solid state technology, BTW) to get reasonable performance. I had a Teac cassette deck with built in NR that was quieter than the Sony.

[ClaudeJ1]

I use each for what it does best -- solid state for bass, tubes for midrange and treble.

That is what Saul Marantz (yes THAT Marantz) himself once told me. After he sold his company to Superscope, he was VP of Marketing for Dalquist.

[Mallette]

Mixing issues, Don. I've never owned a tube R2R, though I used them. You asked if I used an ANALOG tape recorder. As to the S/N, as I said mine is in excess of 90db using DBX. All analog.

I use a vacuum tube mike preamp. I won't get into the debate as to whether it sounds better or not. However, it certainly sounds no worse and while I set my levels very carefully on occasion I'll get a couple of db peak. The tubes round that off gracefully, while SS would simply chop it off brutely...and even owrse, send it to the DAC where it's perfectly preserved. Unless I am WAY too high on gain the tube preamp will take care of me and an SS will not. "Horses for courses" as the British say. I don't recognize "old" and "new" technology...just appropriate technology for the job.

As to 60db being "too noisy," you must be very sensitive. I also wonder if you were using top of the line tape...Ampex 407 or 457 had SNs in the -70 range. Further, the average residential room ambient noise is around 50db, and a well recorded symphony orchestra can have a 70db dynamic range. That means the really quiet sections are going to be some 20db below the ambient noise level if the peak output is "realistic," which would be around 100db.

Most quiet room I ever had measured about 35db. Not sure what my current room would read.

"How is saying that one prefers solid state equipment over tubes bashing anyone? Why so defensive?"

Good question reversed as well. I am neither offensive nor defensive about this. I have solid experience behind what I do when I record and every piece of equipment is what I think is best for the task based on that experience. I am not married to anything but the best sound I can record and if somebody would develop a preamp/recorder that would fit in my pocket and some tiny mikes that would deliver the sound of my 1936 behemoth of RCA BK 3A ribbon mikes I'd be all over it.

One final thing about tubes NOT related to audio but living proof of one of the things I just mentioned that many tubeheads claim: The smooth clipping compared to the violent clipping of SS or digital. In the 1980's, I was writing a book on electrical discharge maching for UNOCAL corporation. I visited many shops accross the country. About the third one I visited I found a HUGE rack of tube amplifiers and asked the machinist if they didn't cost a lot of money to keept that old beast running and why didn't they replace it with a modern SS unit. He said they'd done just that...and found they could get as fine a surface finish with SS on the most delicate work. He then explained to me the SS vs tube clipping thing PRECISELY as an audiophile would even though he had zero knowledge or interest in audio. They'd figured this out on thier own. As I traveled on, I found that all the really top of the line EDM machine shops had kept or brought at least one tube EDM machine back into service for that very reason. As with tube audio amplifiers, tube EDM machines are being produced again. Of course, the vast majority of EDM machine are SS...but when the finest finishes of 200 or better are required the tube machine is brought into service.

Dave

[ClaudeJ1]

If this is an accurate quote of PWK.....then with all due respect Claude this just shows that PWK was human like all of us and could be mistaken. If anyone has read PWK's papers he even disagreed with some of his own findings as his knowledge and experiences later proved to him.

Elimination of TIM didn't solve all the differences in amplifiers. Tube designs as well as SS designs (even from the same manufacture) can exhibit this fact.

True. I don't PWK was deity by any means, he just had strong opinions backed by measurements and listening, just like the rest of us. The biggest problem with most SS amplifiers today is their high power designs.........which is why I like the chip amps running from car battery voltages...............very TUBE-like without the heat.

I always liked the SOUND of all my tube equipment. I just didn't like the hassle of owning them. Chasing bias, warmups, too hot in the summer etc. But when a tube amp is done well, it sounds wonderful, no doubt. I just don't want to pay the price, monetarily or othewise.

This was supposed to be a "compare notes" discussion right?

[ClaudeJ1]

The part that gets me is all the studies claiming listeners can't reliably identify the difference between SS and tubes in blind comparisons....

I was part of those studies, since a couple of Michigan Audio Engineers invented the ABX box. I participated in those tests, when I was YOUR age Mike. That was the conclusion. I never believed the so-called Golden Ears that claimed they could hear a picobel drop across a relay contact, even gold plated ones. Puhlease!

But, much like the Megapixel Myth in photography, Emotional testing trumps science in the real world.

[Marvel]

Download available in a thread near you.

Dave

Excellent recording, btw... [Y] Listened last night on the smaller JBL on the PC. I'll listen on the LaScalas over the weekend.

Bruce

[Mallette]

True. I don't PWK was deity by any means,

HERESY![6]

Dave

[tube fanatic]

I just didn't like the hassle of owning them. Chasing bias, warmups, too hot in the summer etc. But when a tube amp is done well, it sounds wonderful, no doubt. I just don't want to pay the price, monetarily or othewise.

was

Tubes have an undeserved reputation of being a hassle, having a short life span, etc. A tube amp which kills the output tubes after say 1-2k hours just isn't designed correctly. It's quite easy to design a tube amp in which the output tubes last for 10-20k hours. Of course, many manufacturers don't do that because it would mean raising their price point to a probably unacceptable level. As far as too hot in the summer, it's easy to dissipate the generated heat with small, almost silent, fans if that's an issue (with most folks air conditioning their homes these days it's a comlaint which I very rarely hear). And in the winter, a little extra heat in the room is often welcome! As a side discussion I ought to start a thread about the wonderful smell of hot tubes (my wife has caught me many times with my nose at the back of a nice old radio or vintage amp which I had just restored enjoying the aroma. But she knows I'm a bit nuts.......) Maynard

[mark1101]

Agreed, Tube amps smell better than ss amps.

[Marvel]

Well, this is the 2 channel forum. Since stereo was introduced and multitrack recording became the norm there has been little recording done with tube tape machines. Can you imagine the heat produced by an 8 channel tubed tape recorder or a 24 channel tube mixing console? You won't have to since none were made and used commercially.

These guys are making great headway with their consoles. Silly Brits!

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/docs/products/M4.shtml

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/docs/products/VTC.shtml

Up to 56 inputs on the VTC.

Check out the reviews of the VTC at the end of the user testimonials.

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/docs/users/users.shtml

I don't need on of these, but would love to use one for a few weeks.

Bruce

[Don Richard]

As to 60db being "too noisy," you must be very sensitive. I also wonder if you were using top of the line tape...Ampex 407 or 457 had SNs in the -70 range.

I do find hiss extremely annoying. I just looked on the 'net and they gave a noise spec of -61 dB for that deck using chrome tape, no NR.

One final thing about tubes NOT related to audio but living proof of one of the things I just mentioned that many tubeheads claim: The smooth clipping compared to the violent clipping of SS or digital

Hard clipping is caused by the circuit more than the device used. Improper use of feedback can result in gross overload distortion whether used in tube or solid state circuits.

Of course, the vast majority of EDM machine are SS...but when the finest finishes of 200 or better are required the tube machine is brought into service.

In machining work a finish spec of 200 is rough. We have a bandsaw around work that can cut to a 200 finish. A 32 finish is polished, a 5 finish is mirror finished. Our CNC lathes can turn an OD to a 32 finish on 4130 steel using Cermet tooling easily.

[Mallette]

Without getting into a "*** for tat,"...I hope.

"Chrome tape" is not Grandmaster. -68db is the spec for the production tape, better for the premium, tested studio variety.

Tubes clip smoother than SS. That's established, not opinion.

Dead right on the finishes. It's been 25 years and I've not been associated with that business since. Appropriate numbers would be 5 or less. Thanks for that correction.

I respect your opinion about noise, any kind. I'd love to never have any. OTOH, my love for music means I'll not only put up with the noise on my copy of Kid Ory's band doing "Muskrat Ramble" I am GRATEFUL to have it, noise and all and love realizing I am handling a recording made over 80 years ago. Great music with noise is far better to the music oriented audiophile than the opposite. I am aware there are many here who are more interested in IM, THD, a couple of db here or there better SN, etc than music and I fully respect that and ask their opinion on many things due to their expertise. But music is where my head is and more than once someone has pointed out some noise or whatever in one of my systems I'd not heard because it isn't what I listen for. Bummer is that once pointed out it's all you hear. Maddening. However, when said noise is part of the original recording and not fixable I can, and do, simply ignore it and groove.\

BTW, I also agree on "end stage" cassette decks. I unearthed a cassette I made in Singapore on metal tape about 1987 a while back and was stunned at its dynamic range and silent background. Better than CD, IMHO.

Dave

PS - Having been corrected on the finishes, I retrieved another memory about the issue. It wasn't that they couldn't achieve a 5 or less finish with SS, it was that they had to slow it down so much to avoid the hard clipping. The tube machine could be run at higher power and achieve the same finish faster...and these guys billed by the job, not the time.

[Don Richard]

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/docs/products/M4.shtml

http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/docs/products/VTC.shtml

Up to 56 inputs on the VTC. d

Tube preamps only on the first one, 4 tube stages on the second one, among the solid state circuitry in the rest of the mixer.

56 channels? You calling that a professional studio console? Here's a real studio console, made by Solid State Logic:

[thebes]

I

Tubes are soooooo 20th century. I prefer solid state over vacuum state.

Unless you listen to 78s exclusively you are listening to music made on solid state studio equipment. Obviously, digital recording is all solid state except for the occasional use of vacuum tube mic preamps.

Idjuts.[]

Ta hey with the recording engineers. You can listen to all the music you want with SS, but you'd better not be listening to electric guitars and presume your hearing the real thing. After all, virtually anybody with any chops on an electric guitar uses tube amplifiers.

Oh, and Dave, I do believe that most of the best works by those organ guys had some tubes in their chain. Hammond B3 ring a bell? Maybe that's why, like me, you are tube guy.

Duh OH!