Forget What You've Heard. Only PIO's should be Used in Heritage

[thebes]

Once upon a time there was frugal fellow by the name of Paul Klipsch. He started up a speaker company and before long customers were beating a path to his door. Started with a Klipschorn, then needing a center channel he invented the Cornwall, then the Heresy and then, for a political pal he came up with the LaScala. In all of them, yes all of them, he stuffed the crossovers with a veritable boxcar load of surplus military caps. Not just any old cap, but paper-in-oi tobacco can style caps.

Now these caps were used up into the 70's in thousands upon thousands of what today are know as Heritage speakers. Whenever Paul designed a speaker he voiced it using these caps. Then one day well into the 1970's it happened. They finally ran out of surplus PIO's and switched to polyester film in oil. Then after that it was straight up Mylar film types.

And then one day along came Thebes. He was talking with our pal, Craig Otsby one day and tangentially to the conversation he learned all this. Now for some reason Thebes had ignored the whole capacitor issue in regards to xover caps. After all 5 years ago his good online friend, Bob Crites, had replaced the original old caps in his Cornwall xover that were making his stereo sound so dull. Bob used some of his last stock of GE Dielektrol tobacco can style motor run caps which are not paper-in-oil.

For some reason this conversation stayed at the back of his mind. Curious, he went in search of some PIO's on the cheap and ended up with a package of glass sealed, metal wrapped 5% Russian PIO's from a fellow in Romania. Thinking they might be surplus Chernobyl cap he sent them along to Craig who has a fancy cap tester, and as a personal favor he tested them for leakage, uf accuracy etc. and found them to be almost perfectly matched and with no issues at all. In other words in perfect condition.

So did good fellow Thebes just toss them in his Cornwalls and call it a day? Nosire sir, he did one speaker first and tested it again the speaker with the motor run caps. Pleased, he then installed both and wallah, quite a significant improvement. The difference was readily apparent. The Cornwalls were somehow quieter, with a more natural presentation and thedetails struck me as being cleaner. Overall there was a "rightness" to how the music now sounded. In comparison those metalized polypropylene motor run caps were a sonic turd.

Now some say that all caps that measure the same sound the same. However, they sure ain't made the same.



Now given what a cap is supposed to do spec wise should they sound the
same? Yup. But it ain't like fancy wire and interconnects where people
are deliberately changing the signal path, it just that different
materials result in different outcomes. Not to mention that they are designed for different applications.The supposition is that
heritage Klipsch is voiced around the gigantic stock of surplus PIO's
PWK acquired, makes perfect logical sense to me. If all the outcomes
Paul is listening too in designing his speakers come from a signal path
carrying those PIO's how could it not be?

So for those of you who care about your music and who own Heritage, I strongly urge you to forget about all those boutique caps and invest in some PIO's.

After all who knows more about making a speaker sound right.

You?

Me?

or Paul Klipsch.

[mike stehr]

For some reason this conversation stayed at the back of his mind. Curious, he went in search of some PIO's on the cheap and ended up with a package of glass sealed, metal wrapped 5% Russian PIO's from a fellow in Romania

From where?

[Audio Android]

Paper in oil......Making cap selection a little easier........Thank you Thebes!!......They are one of the hardest things to classify in terms of sound.....My journey has barely begun with caps and their different sonic qualities......Thanks for the input...[H]

[JJkizak]

He also marked the outside of the caps with crayon of their actual measured value. One wonders how they ever got any consistancy at all.

JJK

[Deang]

He also marked the outside of the caps with crayon of their actual measured value. One wonders how they ever got any consistancy at all.

JJK

By measuring the caps and then using crayon to mark their actual value - then you match them up. Al uses a grease pencil, I just carve the values in using my pocket knife.

[thebes]

Mike, I'll PM you the guy I'm using. Anybody wants to know my ebay dealer email or PM me. I want to keep this a Forum contact. Can't have those fellers from AA and AK buying up our gold.

I'm a bit surprised that the Forum is apparently caving into my diktat. You guys usually give me more grief. Oh well, when your right, your right. But really, isn't that what we expect from Right As Rain Thebes?

PIO's a Thebes Approved Stereo Component

[seti]

I was expecting more bloodshed from this thread.

[oldtimer]

It wouldn't do any good. Thebes is already one of the undead.

[Boxx]

I was expecting more bloodshed from this thread.

"Serenity now, bloodshed later..." lol...

[Deang]

An affordable option for these is nice. It sure doesn't help my business any, but it's cool if some can get in on the magic who otherwise might not be able to. I've been reading about the various Military types since Marty and me first traded email about these -- people need to be careful. Everything that is being advertised as PIO is not PIO -- a lot of it is a hybrid paper/polymer in oil. I would stick with the information Marty or Craig gives you and don't stray.

I think they work best in the first order filters. Once you start adding parts, I think you can go either way. I sure don't have a problem with good film caps -- they sound real good. I didn't say all of them, I said good ones.

I love how this place has come full circle. When I first joined it was all about how everything sounded pretty much the same, and it didn't matter all that much what kind of CD player or amplifier you used. Anything that couldn't be quantified with a measurement was in all likelihood BS. Guys using tubes and vinyl were seen as eccentric types, and most doubted that they were missing much. Then a handful of guys who actually listened to the music coming out of their speakers joined the forum, and within a year the place exploded with excitement as people started experimenting with different stuff and learned that they were simply wrong about a lot of things. I remember a guy named Leo gently twisting my arm into modding my RF-7's, and a 10 hour trip to Arkansas to prove to a bunch of guys that PARTS THAT MEASURE GOOD CAN SOUND BAD AND THAT THE BETTER PART IS THE PART THAT SOUNDS THE BEST. I guess over time people just forget things like that.

I was building and selling crossovers with PIOs in 2004. I let Bob and Al convince me that capacitors that measure the same sound the same. Marty is right in what he said, while measuring the same in many ways, they aren't made the same, and they behave differently under a load. I can thank Craig for reminding me why I started doing this to begin with and for bringing me back to my senses. On this PIO thing, recommended reading would be anything by Bob Pease. PIOs measure very well in some respects, not so good in others. However, what they do especially well is deliver a pleasurable listening experience.

Everything from the source components to the drivers pass through the crossover. Everything. Someday, someone will have to explain to me why they spend thousands of dollars on amps, sources and loudspeakers, and then throw comparatively speaking -- a handful of change at the very thing that will be the arbiter of excellence or mediocrity.

I totally get that many just plain can't afford the Danish stuff, so the Russian stuff is a great option.

[Cut-Throat]

Someday, someone will have to explain to me why they spend thousands of dollars on amps, sources and loudspeakers, and then throw comparatively speaking -- a handful of change at the very thing that will be the arbiter of excellence or mediocrity.

Dean, I think the answer to this question is that "Caps are hard, if not impossible to audition" for the average guy.

You can attend the RMAF and you cannot audition Caps. You only see finsihed products. You can buy old tubes on e-bay and if you don't like them, you can turn around and sell them and get your money back or even make a few bucks. If you buy Caps, you probably have to have some soldering skill and if you don't like them, you are stuck with them.

I for one am shopping for Caps currently. If you told me to buy the Mundorf Silver/Gold in Oil, because they were the best Cap available for my network I would certainly do this. But then, I might go on-line add them to my shopping basket and later find out that I couldn't get them. Even you have had this problem, right?

Should the average guy buy Caps based on this review?

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

[Deang]

True. I also don't want anyone thinking that spending as much as you possibly can on capacitors is more important than buying a good amp. I have my own limits as well, I would personally never invest in something like the Mundorfs you mentioned, the pricing is just absurd. On your main point, I didn't have to test drive my new Taurus to know that it was a better performer than the Fusion. On the PIO front, they are not a complete unknown. People have been using them around here for years, always with positive results. I can guarantee it sounds considerably better than soldering in $20 worth of Solens. My statement was out of place in this thread anyway - Marty isn't talking about $$$ Jensens, but $ Russian NOS Military Grade PIOs - a big return for little invested.

[Cut-Throat]

I would personally never invest in something like the Mundorfs you mentioned, the pricing is just absurd.

On the parts Connection Website the Jensens are more expensive than a Mudorf Silver/Gold in Oil.......So, I'm confused???

[Deang]

Yes, the copper foil and silver foil Jensens cost more than the Mundorf Silver/Gold in Oil, but that's not what I use.

The Jensen 2.2uF 100Vdc aluminum foil is $41.57. The Mundorf 2.2uF 1000Vdc Silver/Gold in Oil is $111.86. Pretty big difference I would say. If Mundorf offered the Silver/Gold Oil in a 100Vdc version, they might actually be affordable, but why do that when you can sucker people into buying the cap that can withstand a lightning strike.

I'll be using the Mundorf film and tin foils in the Universal (there is no 2.2uF AudioCap Theta), retail on the 2.2uF is about $27.00. So,Mundord does make affordable capacitors. I think it's funny that the film and foils cost less than the metallized types. I don't blame Mundorf, I blame the vendors who are buying the high voltage versions so they can maximize their profits.

[Cut-Throat]

OK, that makes sense.... I had thought you were using the Copper ones

[seti]

I love how this place has come full circle. When I first joined it was all about how everything sounded pretty much the same, and it didn't matter all that much what kind of CD player or amplifier you used. Anything that couldn't be quantified with a measurement was in all likelihood BS. Guys using tubes and vinyl were seen as eccentric types, and most doubted that they were missing much. Then a handful of guys who actually listened to the music coming out of their speakers joined the forum, and within a year the place exploded with excitement as people started experimenting with different stuff and learned that they were simply wrong about a lot of things. I remember a guy named Leo gently twisting my arm into modding my RF-7's, and a 10 hour trip to Arkansas to prove to a bunch of guys that PARTS THAT MEASURE GOOD CAN SOUND BAD AND THAT THE BETTER PART IS THE PART THAT SOUNDS THE BEST. I guess over time people just forget things like that.

From my point of view I didn't want certain things to be true and make a difference aka AudioDenial. Over the last couple years I've traveled and heard some over the top custom built esoteric systems that piece by piece destroyed some preconceived notions. These were things I didn't want to believe made a difference because I couldn't afford it or it was unobtanium. lol... Ignorance is bliss.

[prerich]

Once upon a time there was frugal fellow by the name of Paul Klipsch. He started up a speaker company and before long customers were beating a path to his door. Started with a Klipschorn, then needing a center channel he invented the Cornwall, then the Heresy and then, for a political pal he came up with the LaScala.

If you look a time line - the Heresy actually predates the Cornwall []

[Cut-Throat]

True. I also don't want anyone thinking that spending as much as you possibly can on capacitors is more important than buying a good amp. I have my own limits as well, I would personally never invest in something like the Mundorfs you mentioned, the pricing is just absurd. On your main point, I didn't have to test drive my new Taurus to know that it was a better performer than the Fusion. On the PIO front, they are not a complete unknown. People have been using them around here for years, always with positive results. I can guarantee it sounds considerably better than soldering in $20 worth of Solens. My statement was out of place in this thread anyway - Marty isn't talking about $$$ Jensens, but $ Russian NOS Military Grade PIOs - a big return for little invested.

Dean, what is your preferred Cost no Object Capacitor?

[Deang]

I've never used a cost no object capacitor, so I can't answer that. I like certain things in certain networks, but none of those things even begins to approach "cost no object".

[Cut-Throat]

I've never used a cost no object capacitor, so I can't answer that. I like certain things in certain networks, but none of those things even begins to approach "cost no object".

'Cost no Object' does not mean expensive, it just means your favorite Capacitor regardless of cost.