Get a grip.....

[Zen Traveler]

Thanks for posting in my thread over at AVS but as others there have pointed out isn't that the only benefit you would be getting? Once you provide enough current to drive the speaker without clipping then adding more power isn't going to make it sound better at a volume it wasn't distorting in the first place....

...db's are part of the benefit you are getting. I also think that the speaker/amplifier interaction is only part of the equation, and that part is probably of lessor importance.

I think the assumption here is that by adding more (wattage), you should be receiving more in return... whatever that more is, whether it is db's or as you stated better sound, you should be seeing MORE BENEFIT by adding more wattage in order for it to be of any worth... I say that is the incorrect way of looking at the equation/issue...

Thank you for your explanation but still think the reason to purchase more power is if you are experiencing distortion at the volume you listen or if you want to play it louder...I haven't gone to AVS this morning (saw there was new posts though) the consensus there is adding an external amp would gain me nothing that I am not getting out of the AVR-4311ci. That said and as others have mentioned, this is a hobby where we find our own path, but I like to look at the science of it when making my financial decisions.

Edited June 3, 2014 by tkdamerica

[John Chi-town]

As others have stated headroom and 72,000uF + total storage capacitance will make all the difference in the world!

Best regards,

John

[Schu]

Thank you for your explanation but still think the reason to purchase more power is if you are experiencing distortion at the volume you listen or if you want to play it louder...I haven't gone to AVS this morning (saw there was new posts though) the consensus there is adding an external amp would gain me nothing that I am not getting out of the AVR-4311ci. That said and as others have mentioned, this is a hobby where we find our own path, but I like to look at the science of it when making my financial decisions.

I have the same/similar specification (140w channel) avr... a very clean ICE based SC-35.

when I changed to externals, the sound quality improved SIGNIFICANTLY. moving to separates was one of the biggest sound quality improvements I've made save for going with highly upgraded XO's. Sound quality improvement was a significant decrease in graininess and improved separation which means more dimension instead if a flat wall of sound. At the time I was only driving two speakers for 2 channel... I can only imagine that driving 9 speakers would benefit similarly or at the very least driving the front three with externals and leaving the sides and rears driven with the denon would can only benefit sound, specially if driven at significant db's.

as other have said though... as long as you are happy.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Schu

[Zen Traveler]

... I can only imagine that driving 9 speakers would benefit similarly or at the very least driving the front three with externals and leaving the sides and rears driven with the denon would can only benefit sound, specially if driven at significant db's.

I understand and am not trying to change your mind--Otoh, you have not convinced me to change my current path because I too can imagine a lot of things.

{EDIT: I will continue this discussion on the AVS thread for those still wishing to express an opinion. Here is the link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1532635/would-i-benefit-from-an-external-amp}

Edited June 3, 2014 by tkdamerica

[Daan]

It seems I stirred something up here.... So far I learned that there is more than just Db's, wattage and "grip"...

The synergy between components fascinated me already for years and so I think I'll never be bored by trying out different setups, components and cables.

.

At the moment I'm re-arranging the whole audiorack to fit the big, heavy Bryston in and regardless wether it's only" idling "all the time or not ; everything just sounds better with it !

Thank you all for your input.

Nico

[Zen Traveler]

It seems I stirred something up here.... So far I learned that there is more than just Db's, wattage and "grip"...

The synergy between components fascinated me already for years and so I think I'll never be bored by trying out different setups, components and cables.

I can't disagree about the synergy aspect of this discussion but when it comes to solid state amps it really is all about the ability to drive speakers to the level you want with sufficient headroom...Anything more than that is not going to be used...Anyway, if you enjoy trying out different things that is also part of the hobby so I guess there is no wrong answer. Good luck!

Edited June 3, 2014 by tkdamerica

[NOSValves]

Years ago when I turned from normal speakers to La Scala's, people who owned them told me I'd be having enough power to drive them with "only a few watts" , and that's what I told other people as well.... but is that true?

For years I used low-powered SET tube amps, but now that I'd gone "active" with a miniDSP on the University Classics and having tried different amps I have serious doubts about that statement.

Considering over here we don't have a large livingroom and these big University's are positioned about 4 metres from the listening-area you would suspect even one watt would be enough to drive us out of our chair and play loud and clear.

So this morning I did something crazy; I swapped the Denon 100W/ch poweramp which drives the woofers for one of my retired Bryston 4B poweramp with 2x 250W/ch.

The difference [besides a bit hum] was immediately very clear; more speed and depth in the lows and my wife says the speakers "are livelier than ever " on demanding passages from large classic works.

Now the woofers are crossed over at 1100Hz with 18Db/ so they have a big influence on the overall sound.

When playing the Japanese drums from "Kodo" LOUD ,the difference is huge compared to the Denon [which is regarded a very good amp and should have no trouble driving the woofers whatsoever].

So I assume even when using a high sensivity speaker you still need enough grip to capture the real dynamics of demanding passages.

Who also has experienced this... ever tried different [heavily overrated] amps on your horns?

Nico

What are you driving the top end with?

Edited June 3, 2014 by NOSValves

[Daan]

You are right; I use three amps in combination with the miniDSP. Compared to using passive crossovers, going active has been a great discovery. The Bryston 4B powers the LF section now, and two Decware Zen Tube-amps [mono's] the left and right HF section.

Actually, I stumbled upon the combination of using a SS amp for lows and tubes for highs by accident. When the miniDSP came in, I did not yet choose a amp to power the lows so I used what I had lying around.

The Denon amp sounded great until, like I said earlier "did a crazy thing" and hooked up the Bryston 4B.

Both Decware " Zen" mono's deliver 8 Watts and work from 1100Hz / 18Db upwards. The Bryston from 1100Hz /18Db downwards, response gradually boosted from 80Hz to 20Hz to make up for the cutoff of the basshorn.

The Classics have [ compared to the La Scala for example] a wide air-gap thru which the woofer fires and they deliver a very solid low-end after boosting the low end a bit; no need for a subwoofer anymore.

Nico

[cradeldorf]

This discussion kinda reminds me of the old days where cubic inches were everything. A big block chevy could eat a ford pinto while never shifting out of first gear. I was under the assumption that high wattage meant you were barely idling the amp to blow the windows out as opposed to a low powered amp where your pushing it beyond it's 50% throttle mark to blow the windows out...

[Daan]

This discussion kinda reminds me of the old days where cubic inches were everything. A big block chevy could eat a ford pinto while never shifting out of first gear. I was under the assumption that high wattage meant you were barely idling the amp to blow the windows out as opposed to a low powered amp where your pushing it beyond it's 50% throttle mark to blow the windows out...

Kinda like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXsoAdh5P5g

[Zen Traveler]

This discussion kinda reminds me of the old days where cubic inches were everything. A big block chevy could eat a ford pinto while never shifting out of first gear. I was under the assumption that high wattage meant you were barely idling the amp to blow the windows out as opposed to a low powered amp where your pushing it beyond it's 50% throttle mark to blow the windows out...

In this analogy I don't understand cars well enough to crasp what "beyond it's 50% throttle mark," but if that means you can REALLY hear the engine working to get to that point I would agree. In the audio world it is about sound and if one hears the "engine working" at all then they are definitely pushing their speakers or amp/avr past their limits....To me a good analogy would be an elevator and me and another guy wanted to go to the 11th floor. At the 11th floor I get out and find EXACTLY what I wanted but the other person stays on the elevator and goes to the 15th floor and low and behold he finds what he wants...Cool with me.

Edited June 5, 2014 by tkdamerica

[John Chi-town]

I posted my question because it seems redicilous to use a 250W /ch amp on a pair of big 102Db efficiency hornspeakers in a normal sized livingroom, although it sounds better.

you know... I never quite understood this view, even though it IS a view shared by 99% of the folks specially on this forum.

I standardized response is that it's a waste... why is it a waste? I would never run any amp I owned near 100% of it's output because I want to limit distortion, so why would it matter in the slightest manner if I owned an amplifier and decided to run it at 40%-50% (or less) of it's output?

the only possible argument I can see is that lower output amplifiers generally are less prone to distortion, which I agree with... but my 250w amp's are extremely low in distortion.

Since my system ALSO seconds as a semi Home Theater set up, I do need some higher rated amp's for that duty.

I guess if you are really driven and need the "grip"... you could bi amp and use a different set up for the LF section.

I agree 100% with Schu on this one. I run a 250 Watt dedicated amp as well. It is not so much the additional wattage that makes the difference, but the "Reserve Capacatince" that is available for demanding loads and passages.

Best regards,

John

[kaiser SET say]

I think you pretty much hit the nail with that one John, additional power is for keeping it clean when peaks are required. Filling those gaps is basically stopping clip. I'm guessing as I'm far from any kind of elecctrical engineer but I've thought that "Reserve Capacitance" was what BAT calls joules (what BAT upgrades to with their BAT-PAK upgrade) Not adding any more watts but creating enough backup reserve to cover peaks which does sound like you have more watts I guess.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I think you pretty much hit the nail with that one John, additional power is for keeping it clean when peaks are required. Filling those gaps is basically stopping clip. I'm guessing as I'm far from any kind of elecctrical engineer but I've thought that "Reserve Capacitance" was what BAT calls joules (what BAT upgrades to with their BAT-PAK upgrade) Not adding any more watts but creating enough backup reserve to cover peaks which does sound like you have more watts I guess.

A Joule is energy.

I googled it and

1 Joule = 1 watt x 1 second

[vnzbd]

I was using a "top of the" Marantz sr 8500 avr rated at 125 wpc. I added an Emotiva XPA-5 rated at 200 wpc but when run at 2 ch comes in closer to 300 wpc. The specs on the Emotiva state that the power supply has a 1200VA toroidal transformer and 60k worth of cap storage. The Emo rep stated to me that in laymans terms that the toridal was power on demand and the caps were for reserve.

The bottom line for me is a night and day difference in the bass. It is more present and punchier(?) at all volume levels. Living in a townhouse, I appreciate the tactile bass at late night volume levels.

[Daan]

So the difference we are hearing is probably the better start-and-stop movement of the cone of the woofer because the beefier amp controls it better, right?

This would explain why the difference is even more noticable when volume increases or at demanding passages like played by a whole orchestra.

Anyway, glad that I'm not the only one who has a "heavily overrated amp" on his high- sensivity loudspeakers.

Wish I tried the old Bryston on my La Scala's...

[Daan]

"The Emo rep stated to me that in laymans terms that the toridal was power on demand and the caps were for reserve".

That makes sense! The Bryston weighs 25Kg because of it's big twin transformers and has 4 huge caps....

[Heritage_Head]

Years ago when I turned from normal speakers to La Scala's, people who owned them told me I'd be having enough power to drive them with "only a few watts" , and that's what I told other people as well.... but is that true?

For years I used low-powered SET tube amps, but now that I'd gone "active" with a miniDSP on the University Classics and having tried different amps I have serious doubts about that statement.

Considering over here we don't have a large livingroom and these big University's are positioned about 4 metres from the listening-area you would suspect even one watt would be enough to drive us out of our chair and play loud and clear.

So this morning I did something crazy; I swapped the Denon 100W/ch poweramp which drives the woofers for one of my retired Bryston 4B poweramp with 2x 250W/ch.

... So I assume even when using a high sensivity speaker you still need enough grip to capture the real dynamics of demanding passages ...

Nico

If the Denon and the Bryston are rated fairly, you would be getting a tad more than 3 dB more headroom with the Bryston. There may well be other factors unknown, and perhaps unnamed.

After reading this stuff (as an only moderately technical amateur) for more than 40 years, I doubt if there is a very satisfying response to your concern. While 2 watts is sufficient to "drive" La Scalas to 100 dB in a 3,000 cu ft room (Keele, 1977; Dope from Hope 16/1), the problem comes in with the intensity and duration of peaks, IMO. When measuring full symphony orchestras with a peak reading meter (fast) you would get 115 dB peaks, for just an instant, according to Paul Klipsch. In the same 3,000 cu feet room mentioned above, that would require 63 watts, for just that instant. Still no problem for either of your amps. But, we haven't quantified an "instant." And, some modern meters can register 120 dB peaks from the conductor's position. That would take about 200 watts. What if the leading edge of a peak comes in at 123 dB for a millisecond or less? That would take about 400 watts for that moment. Someone once posted the peak levels for rim shots heard fairly close up. I can't recall the figure, but it was greater than any I have mentioned above.

Great info and somthing one can point to when talking about using a power amp in place of an avr.

[Heritage_Head]

Thanks for posting in my thread over at AVS but as others there have pointed out isn't that the only benefit you would be getting? Once you provide enough current to drive the speaker without clipping then adding more power isn't going to make it sound better at a volume it wasn't distorting in the first place....

let me preface this by stating I am only beginning my understanding of this realm of sound and never contend to be of any authority.

however, I don't completely agree... though I do agree in part.

db's are part of the benefit you are getting. I also think that the speaker/amplifier interaction is only part of the equation, and that part is probably of lessor importance.

I think the assumption here is that by adding more (wattage), you should be receiving more in return... whatever that more is, whether it is db's or as you stated better sound, you should be seeing MORE BENEFIT by adding more wattage in order for it to be of any worth... I say that is the incorrect way of looking at the equation/issue.

I haven't purchased slightly higher wattage amplifiers to get "MORE GOODNESS", I purchased them so the goodness that the units provide keep them operating at a more relaxed and controlled level.

I don't believe distortion is a completely linear phenomenon meaning that the more value you apply to the signal, the higher the distortion and graininess. Higher wattage SS amplifiers are of good build quality offer EXTREMELY LOW distortion ratings but like all things, the more you push them towards the rated limit, the higher the distortion. Therefore having this extra "headroom" means that I only need to run them at a fraction of there total output capabilities to listen at the levels I desire... ie: less distorted and cleaner signal for a given listening level. I hate to use the word "headroom" because of all the negative connotations associated with it but I suppose that is exactly what it is... more than enough with reserves to spare = headroom.

There is one other thing that I think also applies here... It is mainly that in these modern times, many of the modern recordings/compositions we listen to demand extremely fast response times from the amplifier in order to deliver precise accurate representation. Recordings these days have all kinds of extreme peaks and very sudden power demands that require the amplifier to respond in milliseconds with high output power. Having that power on reserve helps to fulfill this need with very fast response speeds instead of straining to keep up.

Mainly, we're talking about Home Theater at this point, which my amp's also double for even though it is of secondary concern for myself. I have also found that many of the modern soundtracks I listen to as part of my 2 channel enjoyment seem to make similar demands on my system with what are extreme peaks... all combined with LFE at times.

I am sure I will be corrected by some here, but that is my understanding from others with far more expertise than I.

Very well put sir. Effortless is the name of the game. Every time I lessen the work load in my system it becomes an upgarde. That goes for power, and speakers. It is the vary reason we love klipsch (less effort more sound).

[Heritage_Head]

Thank you for your explanation but still think the reason to purchase more power is if you are experiencing distortion at the volume you listen or if you want to play it louder...I haven't gone to AVS this morning (saw there was new posts though) the consensus there is adding an external amp would gain me nothing that I am not getting out of the AVR-4311ci. That said and as others have mentioned, this is a hobby where we find our own path, but I like to look at the science of it when making my financial decisions.

I have the same/similar specification (140w channel) avr... a very clean ICE based SC-35.

when I changed to externals, the sound quality improved SIGNIFICANTLY. moving to separates was one of the biggest sound quality improvements I've made save for going with highly upgraded XO's. Sound quality improvement was a significant decrease in graininess and improved separation which means more dimension instead if a flat wall of sound. At the time I was only driving two speakers for 2 channel... I can only imagine that driving 9 speakers would benefit similarly or at the very least driving the front three with externals and leaving the sides and rears driven with the denon would can only benefit sound, specially if driven at significant db's.

as other have said though... as long as you are happy.

Zen has been arguing this topic since 2006 and still has never owned an amp to compare. Yet he will argue the difference to death

Edited June 5, 2014 by reference_head