80hz - 120hz, subwoofer vs speaker, who win?

[qtg90]

If we exclude the disadvantage of localization (this becomes less noticable when using 2 or 4 subs), i wonder a subwoofer or a speaker will perform better in the range of 80hz to 120hz. Let's say the subwoofer and the speaker are in the same league, which means they can pair to each other. More specifically, Velodyne eq-max 10 vs Klipsch rf-82 and rc64 ii?

 

Please, i look forward to your opinions in this matter because i read somewhere in the avsforum that very few speakers (even high-end) have the ability to reproduce midbass in the manner that a decent subwoofer does.

 

Thank you all in advance.

Edited September 18, 2014 by qtg90

[billybob]

I think speakers of note like Klipsch over subs in that range. My take on a sub is sub duty in the low say 20 hz to maybe 60, 80 tops...

Edited September 18, 2014 by billybob

[Turbox]

That's what im thinking too.

[derrickdj1]

It depends on the sub.  Some subs play well up to 200-300 Hz.  I guess the bigger question is wether the OP is wondering if the Veldyne sub can keep up with his mains.  Mustang  guy said best:  when you keep turning up the volume of the system, the sub volume should go up with the speakers.  If it can't you have your answer.

[Thaddeus Smith]

My sub starts to take a dump at 100hz and my mains are pitiful below 50-60hz, so I cross over at 80hz and am pretty happy with the results.

[tromprof]

In my case I crossover at 50 HZ. The F-20s are great, but the QPs are much better 50 HZ and above. It takes some messing around to find the best crossover point but it is easy to tell when you get it.

[qtg90]

Thank you all for your relies, as i am gonna upgrade my subs so to be more specific, dual decent 15" subs such as HSU VTF-15 or PSA  Xs15se vs 2 ways speakers with woofer size from 8" below (in my case is RC-64 ii and RF-82 ii) for the competition from 80hz to 120hz, who is the favorite? My experience is that midbass is maybe not the strongest aspect of Klipsch speaker compared to other brand assuming the woofer size is the same (i have demoed A to B between RC-64 ii and B&W CM center 2 in my room using the same pow XPA-5, for midbass B&W won, for mid m not sure cause they were so different but i personally like klipsch better, for upper mid and treble klipsch won, of course i calibrated my system for the B&W CM center 2 before doing the test, all crossed at 80Hz).

Edited September 19, 2014 by qtg90

[derrickdj1]

I don't know if you should  say which will win. The ideal of a sub/s in the HT system is to do the heavy lifting of the LF.  Most good subs can go down to 20-25 Hz better than most full range speaker, even the big RF towers. The mention subs are very good and would not have a problem being xo at 100-120 Hz except for localization.  I have use dual oppose 12 in, 15 in and 18 in. subs with my RF 7/RC 64 system and have used a XO as high as 100 Hz with no problems.  If you are looking for slam, the mentioned sub will have plenty.

[alexg5775]

I have the cf4, dual ported 12's,  which are +-3db like at 33hz. I have a tht sub and i cross the sub over at 40-50hz and it blends very nicely. I find that usually speakers midbass is cleaner and more musical than subs. i would try and run your speakers as low as possible and let your sub pick up from there. If i want more SLAM in the 50-90hz region i just turn the knob and cross over the sub a little higher like 80 or 90 hz and much much more slam is audable, i would say to much in my perticular system but still sometime i crave this extra slam;) The dayton sa1000 sub amp i have now is really a nice piece of gear.  Hope i helped.

 

Alex

[qtg90]

I don't know if you should  say which will win. The ideal of a sub/s in the HT system is to do the heavy lifting of the LF.  Most good subs can go down to 20-25 Hz better than most full range speaker, even the big RF towers. The mention subs are very good and would not have a problem being xo at 100-120 Hz except for localization.  I have use dual oppose 12 in, 15 in and 18 in. subs with my RF 7/RC 64 system and have used a XO as high as 100 Hz with no problems.  If you are looking for slam, the mentioned sub will have plenty.

Thanks derrick, one more question, do you think it's worth upgrade from RF-82ii to RF-7 ii to pair with RC-64ii provided that i'm a 100% HT guy, no music whatsover?

[qtg90]

I have the cf4, dual ported 12's,  which are +-3db like at 33hz. I have a tht sub and i cross the sub over at 40-50hz and it blends very nicely. I find that usually speakers midbass is cleaner and more musical than subs. i would try and run your speakers as low as possible and let your sub pick up from there. If i want more SLAM in the 50-90hz region i just turn the knob and cross over the sub a little higher like 80 or 90 hz and much much more slam is audable, i would say to much in my perticular system but still sometime i crave this extra slam;) The dayton sa1000 sub amp i have now is really a nice piece of gear.  Hope i helped.

 

Alex

Yeah, i agree but with the sub handling up to 80hz or higher we can have the flexibility to adjust the output of midbass without affecting the midrange performance in the case of 2 ways speaker.

[CECAA850]

It's so easy to find the winner in this debate. Try it both ways and see which way sounds better. Everybody has different gear, speakers and subs. Every room is different. Push a couple buttons and see what you like.

[qtg90]

It's so easy to find the winner in this debate. Try it both ways and see which way sounds better. Everybody has different gear, speakers and subs. Every room is different. Push a couple buttons and see what you like.

Yeah, compared to the dual EQ-max 10, the RC-64 ii wins according to my taste. But i dont know if i should upgrade my amp to XPR-5 to feed more power to the L/R/C and surs  or use this money for upgrading to dual decent 15" subs and then turn up the crossover knob to 120hz to achieve the best result in the midbass range.

[CECAA850]

 

It's so easy to find the winner in this debate. Try it both ways and see which way sounds better. Everybody has different gear, speakers and subs. Every room is different. Push a couple buttons and see what you like.

Yeah, compared to the dual EQ-max 10, the RC-64 ii wins according to my taste. But i dont know if i should upgrade my amp to XPR-5 to feed more power to the L/R/C and surs  or use this money for upgrading to dual decent 15" subs and then turn up the crossover knob to 120hz to achieve the best result in the midbass range.

 

 

 

The 2 most important channels/speakers in a HT are the center and the sub(LFE).  You have the center covered.  Upgrade the subs, no question.  Get an amp down the road if you still feel the need.   

[Chris A]

It's been my experience that subwoofers perform better for the infrasonic portion of the aural spectrum, i.e., 40 Hz and below.  Loudspeaker bass bins are much better above that frequency--categorically.  I believe the tendency to run the crossover frequency higher is something that the cheap "home theater in a box" folks started with their tiny little loudspeakers, and before that, the movie theaters used because of the immense size of their venues and the problems that they used to have filling those room volumes with large amounts of low frequency acoustic energy below 80 Hz --this is a historic thing that movie theaters ran into, and THX took ownership of.  Otherwise, I think that the movie theaters would've run that crossover frequency much lower

 

Putting the subwoofer/bass bin crossover at 40-50 Hz significantly helps to keep modulation distortion down to manageable levels in home theaters.  YMMV.

 

Chris

Edited September 19, 2014 by Chris A

[ClaudeJ1]

In my case I crossover at 50 HZ. The F-20s are great, but the QPs are much better 50 HZ and above. It takes some messing around to find the best crossover point but it is easy to tell when you get it.

This is exactly what I designed them to do, a clean 50-60 bottom, with only 1/2 of a fold (90degrees instead of 180 like a LaScala or MWM). Glad to see your sub settings are the same as mine were with the DTS-10's.

[derrickdj1]

 

I don't know if you should  say which will win. The ideal of a sub/s in the HT system is to do the heavy lifting of the LF.  Most good subs can go down to 20-25 Hz better than most full range speaker, even the big RF towers. The mention subs are very good and would not have a problem being xo at 100-120 Hz except for localization.  I have use dual oppose 12 in, 15 in and 18 in. subs with my RF 7/RC 64 system and have used a XO as high as 100 Hz with no problems.  If you are looking for slam, the mentioned sub will have plenty.

Thanks derrick, one more question, do you think it's worth upgrade from RF-82ii to RF-7 ii to pair with RC-64ii provided that i'm a 100% HT guy, no music whatsover?

 

I am with CECAA850 on getting the subs if HT is what you want.  The RF 82's should be fine.  They are very capable speakers.  You may find that you don't need a XO of 120 Hz.  I have all the slam that anyone could want with the subs XO at 80 Hz.  The goal is the seamless blend of the mains and subs.

[qtg90]

Thank you all for ur informed advices, i havent heard any ID subs before, maybe something that i feel i am missing lies below 80hz cause the EQ-max 10 is not a very capable sub IMHO.

Edited September 20, 2014 by qtg90

[ChuckAb3]

It's been my experience that subwoofers perform better for the infrasonic portion of the aural spectrum, i.e., 40 Hz and below.  Loudspeaker bass bins are much better above that frequency--categorically.  I believe the tendency to run the crossover frequency higher is something that the cheap "home theater in a box" folks started with their tiny little loudspeakers, and before that, the movie theaters used because of the immense size of their venues and the problems that they used to have filling those room volumes with large amounts of low frequency acoustic energy below 80 Hz --this is a historic thing that movie theaters ran into, and THX took ownership of.  Otherwise, I think that the movie theaters would've run that crossover frequency much lower

 

Putting the subwoofer/bass bin crossover at 40-50 Hz significantly helps to keep modulation distortion down to manageable levels in home theaters.  YMMV.

 

Chris

I agree and that's why I cross over in the range Chris mentions. Of course, my HT mains are KLF-30's and they dig pretty deep to begin with. Somewhat different story if I was using main speakers that crapped out below 60 Hz.

[garyrc]

... with the sub handling up to 80hz or higher we can have the flexibility to adjust the output of midbass without affecting the midrange performance in the case of 2 ways speaker.

It depends on what front speakers you are using, and a lot else, IMO.

• My Klipschorns and my Belle Klipsch have far clearer and cleaner and "snappier" bass between 80 and 120 than my subwoofer (RSW15, a Klipsch model with one active 15" woofer, and a 15" passive radiator). 
• If you have a separate bass control on your AVR or pre/pro you can turn up the mid-bass coming through the main speakers.  Most bass controls will only affect the front channels -- mine only affects the Left Front & Right Front.  Many good, tight front speakers (including those in the Klipsch Heritage line) will tolerate moderate bass boost (6 dB?) if they are set on "small" [nothing to do with actual size] and crossed over to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz, without screwing up the midrange.  The bass tone control should have an obvious effect on the octave that is at about 80 to 160, and a slight effect up to above 200/250. 
• Most people do turn up the sub gain a bit above flat, but with the subs I have heard, turning them up while crossing over at a high Xover (e.g., 120) ends up turning up the mud.  I'm talking about the actual crossover used to channel music to the sub or to the main speakers.  The separate Low Pass Filter (not, strictly speaking, a true crossover) for special, non-musical effects ("LPF for LFE") should be set at 120 (because the filmmakers are counting on that), and it doesn't make much difference if those are muddy.  Some AVRs do not have a marked and adjustable LPF, and that's fine -- that means the effects are channeled to the sub at 120 and below.  All AVRs have the true crossover network that sends the bass content of music (mainly) to the sub below whatever crossover you select -- usually 80, sometimes 60, or wherever you set it.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Garyrc