Finally hearing the harshness people speak of

[Emjay]

Hi.

I recently purchased a pair of RF-83s via ebay.

First up, I'm in Australia, where klipsch is much harder to come by.

I started with quintets, then upgraded to Synergy F3/C3/S2, and have finally stepped up to the Reference series.

To mixed feelings.

Much of the time, the 83s sound truly phenomenal, and I couldn't be happier.

BUT... every now and then, with some music, I feel like the horns overlap, somehow, and pierce my ears :-(

I've never heard the harshness, before, which some people complain about with klipsch, but now that I've stepped up to the flagship reference speaker (arguably - or is it the 7?) and turning up the music leaves me unhappy

I have to stress, this is only apparent with some music.

To try to eliminate variables, I am only playing CDs at the moment.

I have somewhat of a wide range of music in my collection.

Jazz seems supreme - reproduction of saxophone is magical.

Orchestral, in general, is splendid.

However, when I listen to Guns and Roses, for example, or even some of the hihat/cymbals on the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album by the chilli peppers, it's almost unbearable.

Hotel California is fantastic (as is The Eagles excellent Farewell blu ray, but I digress), but some Led Zeppelin hurts.

I am using a Cambridge Audio 751BD for CD/blu ray duties, connected via RCA into my primary amp, a Chinese tube/SS hybrid (Bada purer 3.0). This delivers 30wpc in class A, and then another 100 watts are available in class AB, and has about 120 hours on it, having been purchased specifically for the 83s

I have also tried using a Rotel RB976, which did nothing to address the issue, and overall sounded worse.

I was using some cheap speaker wire, so I purchased some 13 gauge wire from my local electronics store which may have made a slight improvement in overall sound, but has not solved the problem (and, to be honest, this might be in my head).

Is it just a matter of some music/CDs not working with the 83s?

I really appreciate any advice or assistance from any of you, as I was so excited the night before they arrived that I could barely sleep (like when I was a kid the night before Christmas!), and now I'm almost regretting the purchase

Edited October 4, 2014 by Emjay

[jjptkd]

If you bought your speakers new they will need break in time. Let them play continuously even at low volume for at least a few days straight before you do any critical listening. That being said some recordings do sound worse than others. You can try higher resolution copies (or re-mastered if available) of the same music and see if that helps. With older recordings it really is hit or miss on quality and really sensitive horn speakers will let you know in a hurry which is which, good luck!

Edited October 4, 2014 by jjptkd

[akdave]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on the 83's! Others who are far more knowledgeable than I will likely chime in soon. I purchased my set of Rf7-II's in 2012 and while I wouldn't call what I experienced harshness per se, I felt like I could relate with your post.

There were many songs I couldn't wait to just crank when I got my speakers (they sound so good in the vehicle, they're going to be light years better with awesome speakers right?!). Well they sounded lame. It certainly wasn't the speakers, it was the recording.

I instantly became aware of quality, compression, and more so connections. Blu ray concerts sound much better than anything via iTunes and CDs are hit and miss for me. EVERYTHING is recorded and mixed very differently. I don't know what kind of eq tweaks you can do on your system but play around with that and see if you bring down some treble on the GnR for example and see if that helps. See if CDs via your Bluray player sound any different via hdmi vs RCA connections from the CD player too just for kicks.

Good luck!

(I'm an audio novices novice so take this with a grain of salt - someone else will probably give you much more insightful and technical assistance)

[Chris A]

I've found that harshness can be caused by a few things. first acoustically related items:

 

1) lack of absorption in your listening room, especially in the 1-4 KHz region

2) near-field acoustic reflections around your loudspeakers or at your listening position

3) low ceiling and/or hard floor, or an angled, non-flat ceiling

 

Next, setup-related items

 

4) amplifiers that product higher-order harmonics, such as solid state amplifiers with medium levels of feedback

5) loudspeakers that aren't EQed relatively flat for your listening position

 

and lastly, the music used:

 

6) the exact music selections that you choose to play, including discs/downloads that are "loud" discs/tracks relative to other tracks, or playing MP3s that were poorly produced (i.e., any lossy compression formats that typically are used for downloaded tracks). In general, the better the loudspeakers used, the more objectionable these tracks become to listen to.

 

I've found that looking at your setup via a pix uploaded will also help diagnosing potential issues.

 

Chris

Edited October 4, 2014 by Chris A

[tromprof]

Don't panic. You may need to adjust a few things to get them to sound the way you want to. I have always found the reference series a bit bright for my tastes, and it seems the same is true for you. A little EQing can go a long way toward taming the high end and helping the speaker fit into to your room. And as has been mentioned above better speakers reveal crappy recordings for what they are. Good luck.

BTW, speaker break in is a well debunked myth. The only thing that will "break in" is a woofer or subwoofer driver, and they will achieve this in a few good low notes. Your ears are the thing that tends to break in as you get used to the new sound. It is right up there with burning in cables and gear.

[willland]

I recently purchased a pair of RF-83s via ebay. First up, I'm in Australia, where klipsch is much harder to come by. I started with quintets, then upgraded to Synergy F3/C3/S2, and have finally stepped up to the Reference series. To mixed feelings. Much of the time, the 83s sound truly phenomenal, and I couldn't be happier. BUT... every now and then, with some music, I feel like the horns overlap, somehow, and pierce my ears :-( I've never heard the harshness, before, which some people complain about with klipsch, but now that I've stepped up to the flagship reference speaker (arguably - or is it the 7?) and turning up the music leaves me unhappy I have to stress, this is only apparent with some music. To try to eliminate variables, I am only playing CDs at the moment. I have somewhat of a wide range of music in my collection. Jazz seems supreme - reproduction of saxophone is magical. Orchestral, in general, is splendid. However, when I listen to Guns and Roses, for example, or even some of the hihat/cymbals on the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album by the chilli peppers, it's almost unbearable. Hotel California is fantastic (as is The Eagles excellent Farewell blu ray, but I digress), but some Led Zeppelin hurts. I am using a Cambridge Audio 751BD for CD/blu ray duties, connected via RCA into my primary amp, a Chinese tube/SS hybrid (Bada purer 3.0). This delivers 30wpc in class A, and then another 100 watts are available in class AB, and has about 120 hours on it, having been purchased specifically for the 83s I have also tried using a Rotel RB976, which did nothing to address the issue, and overall sounded worse. I was using some cheap speaker wire, so I purchased some 13 gauge wire from my local electronics store which may have made a slight improvement in overall sound, but has not solved the problem (and, to be honest, this might be in my head). Is it just a matter of some music/CDs not working with the 83s? I really appreciate any advice or assistance from any of you, as I was so excited the night before they arrived that I could barely sleep (like when I was a kid the night before Christmas!), and now I'm almost regretting the purchase

 

 

First, welcome to the forum.

 

Second, most models of Klipsch speakers are very revealing and the quality of recording will dictate just how the sound will be conveyed.  Those titanium compression tweeters can be an ally as well as an enemy when poor recordings are played.   I doubt your Cambridge Audio 751BD is the culprit because I love mine and am very impressed how it reproduces CD's.

 

Maybe try toeing your 83's out a bit more so they will shoot about 6 inches off plane on the outside of your ears in your main listening position.

 

I absolutely adore my RF-63's and some of the finest music has come to my ears from the horns of those babies.

 

Go to this website and let it be your reference stop for recordings choice.

 

 http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=eagles&album=

 

As you can see from the chart, the "remastered" recordings are not the ones with the best dynamic range.

 

Bill

Edited October 12, 2014 by willland

[derrickdj1]

Welcome to the forum Emjay.  First congrats on a nice set of speakers.  I am like Willand, I don't aim the speaker at the MLP.  I aim them a little off axis.  If you have hard floors, an area rugs will help.  The high frequency response starting a 2 kHz and up can be cut.  For, example: from 10 or 12 kHz, gradually cut 2-3 db down to 2 kHz.  And, ditto what everyone else suggested.  What avr are you using and have you ran autocalibration?  What is the room size, room Tx, furnishings, +/- windows, ect.?

[Schu]

vast majority of it is source material related... harshness isn't inherent, efficiency and clarity are.

 

that being said, as I moved up the chain of Klipsch, and made modifications, I found that old source material that was un-listenable had become somewhat enjoyable. At least until I found better source material... don't skip on your source material if you really are trying to achieve critical listening.

[garyrc]

or an angled, non-flat ceiling

 

Angled in what way?  (what direction?).  Does this depend on the degree of the angle and the distance of the listener?

[Emjay]

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

I'm glad that there have been a few comments saying that my issue might just be with some reproductions - as I mentioned, I have been restricting myself to CDs to ensure I am not dealing with compressed MP3s.

I have a limited collection of SACD, but I have not experienced the issue with any of them.

Neither amp has any EQ settings - the hybrid has "timbre 1" and "timbre 2" which seem to increase the bass without changing the top end.

I have been thinking about introducing an equaliser to tame the top end.

Neither amp has any calibration options.

I will try repositioning the speakers - I have placed them so that they point directly at the main listening position.

The room is carpeted, and has a ceiling fan, is flat, and about 10' high

MLP is along the opposite wall, about 15' from the 83s. I'll try putting something against this wall to ensure I am not dealing with reflections from behind

The 1 window in the room is behind a curtain.

Bookshelves are on both left and right walls

Thanks again for the friendly greetings and advice

Edited October 4, 2014 by Emjay

[derrickdj1]

Something like this might help:       http://www.ebay.com/itm/Behringer-FBQ2496-Feedback-Destroyer-Pro-Feedback-Suppressor-Parametric-EQ-/261609108369?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item3ce91e3391

 

Will this system be for 2 ch only?  Will you add a sub in the mix?

Edited October 4, 2014 by derrickdj1

[russ69]

Everything in your system should work well together. I can recommend some solid core copper speaker cable (AQ Type 2 is cheap). It will definitely smooth the top end a bit. The only other idea is perhaps changing the tubes, thinking you may have a bad tube or one that is microphonic. 

[garyrc]

Your room sounds good (relatively high ceiling, diffusing bookshelves, carpet, curtained window, etc). 

 

Even so, rather than getting an equalizer, you might consider an AVR or a pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT.  It provides automatic EQ at over 100 points and takes into consideration both your speakers and your room.

 

There is good news and bad news. 

 

The good news is that Audyssey XT improves many systems (including mine) and gives you a choice between Audyssey FLAT (sometimes called Audyssey music) and Audyssey Reference (sometimes called Audyssey Movie, or just plain Audyssey).  Even though Audyssey FLAT seems intuitively to be the best choice, most people find that Audyssey Reference sounds better, especially with bright or harsh sources.  It reduces the response at 10K by 2 dB, and cuts 6 dB at 20K.  BUT I suspect that isn't where your problem really lies.  The harshness in bad recordings people complain about is more in the upper midrange.  Audyssey XT may help that, too; on the Reference setting (only) it builds in a very small (~~~ 2 dB) attenuation at about 2K .  The industry has nicknamed this "the BBC dip."  The original reason for the BBC employing this dip was that some of their speakers had a crossover right at 2K that sounded bad.  Chris K., the CTO of Audyssey, though believes that this little tweak helps even when there is no crossover nearby.  He says, "I;ve never heard a system that it didn't improve."

 

The bad news is that, other than giving you a choice of Flat or Reference, Audyssey XT doesn't let you customize the response by ear. 

 

There is a more expensive Audyssey (X32) built into some receivers and pre/pros that may be better, but I don't know if it has the BBC dip on reference.

 

Before running Audyssey XT (8 microphone positions and time consuming), you might want to put some absorbers (not too large an area) at those points along the wall where, if a friend holds a mirror flat against the wall there, you can see a reflection of your speakers in the mirror from your main listening position.

 

I don't remember if you have a subwoofer.  Most people who run Audyssey find that they prefer turning up the sub (at the reciever trims) a ways after running Audyssey (2 db to about 9 dB).  Researchers have found that relatively flat sound is not judged "flat" by most people, but a house curve with somewhat elevated bass sounds "flat."

Edited October 4, 2014 by Garyrc

[Emjay]

I am using the 83s as F L/R for home theatre.

The issue is prevalent when listening to music only - I have not experienced this while watching TV/movies.

I am not using a sub, at this stage.

That feedback destroyer looks more like it's for studio applications than home use - do you use one?

[The History Kid]

This is why I have my 3's set to graze the outside of the MLP - however, I did that to counteract the fact my previous amps did not have formal EQ settings on them. I never adjusted them back after I did get a receiver that would manage EQ. Then again, I have horns all over the room as well, some aimed directly at the MLP, and some reflecting - but surrounds don't tend to make you want to cringe as much if you're getting hit by them.

[twelveblocks]

Some of the newer CD's are too bright and compressed, particularly in rock I've noticed. I have CD's purchased back in the 80's that sound better than the newer ones. My son recently bought a new Yes Album CD, remastered, and it doesn't sound as good as the one I bought 25 years ago. It is sad what they have done to the format, no wonder vinyl is making a comeback. SACD's sound great but are a bit expensive. 

[Chris A]

However, when I listen to Guns and Roses, for example, or even some of the hihat/cymbals on the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album by the chili peppers, it's almost unbearable.

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr?artist=Guns+N%27+Roses

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Red+Hot+Chili+Peppers&album=Blood

 

Mixed bag here, but the comment you made about high hats and cymbals sounding awful usually is one of three things:

• amplifier quality (especially valves/tubes that degrade over time that must be replaced),

   

• source material dynamic range compression - which is usually the most frequent issue (discussed above), or

   

• the quality of the tweeters in your new loudspeakers--which I can't help much on, other than to say that you should consult others with this exact model of loudspeaker to understand their experiences.  This is a possibility.

Chris

Edited October 5, 2014 by Chris A

[Deang]

When a person says some things sound good and some things sound bad - it's a source related issue. The higher the resolving power of the system, the worse bad recordings sound.

[Emjay]

If the issue is with the sources, it's disappointing, since there's nothing that I can really do about it.

But also a relief, in a way.

I was leaning that way myself, since they sound really, really good in many instances.

I guess I'll work out, over time, which CDs I can use as drink coasters.

I have been thinking about the resurgence of vinyl, but I really don't want to start a new, expensive, hobby!

One thing I will try, as well, it's running the CDs into my marantz AVR, which only has MultEQ, and see whether the audyssey makes any improvement.

I found, though, with my previous set-up (F3s and denon avr) that I preferred audyssey off for music

[Emjay]

I thought I'd do some of the easier tests, to start with.

I placed a sheet of speaker foam along the back wall, behind my seating - no difference.

Next was to reorient the pair so that they face slightly further apart, and noticed an immediate and significant improvement.

Rather foolishly, I suppose, I assumed that the best imaging would come from each speaker being directed at the ears, rather like a giant pair of headphones!

The sharpness is still apparent, but nowhere near as shrill.

Thanks all for the helpful, thoughtful and friendly advice!

Edited October 5, 2014 by Emjay