Max2 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I know the company has added titanium tweeters to a few models here and there, but when are the obvious improvements coming....or are they? There are a few drivers out there that outshine the K55 and the K77 by a good bit. There are custom horns that are a big improvement over the K400 and K401. Do we not dare touch the Klipschorn from respect of PWK's original design or is it a financial marketing standpoint? With a few boutique horn companies hitting the Euro market and horns making a come back in general like vinyl, is there not a push to improve on what design is already there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Titanium drivers are better? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Designing great horns is easy, that research was probably finished in the 50s. Making loudspeakers that sell is a harder problem. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) I will say that designing a horn is easy. Designing a great horn is hard, but quite doable. Designing a great horn-loaded system is very difficult. Horns are very unforgiving of non-linearities or inherent distortion in the system. There is a reason that even when designed correctly, many horns have a very distinct "aww" coloration. This is due to an incomplete impedance match typically in slot horns where the slot profile contributes to the sound as much as the horn profile (you're playing a driver through a duct rather than fully horn loading a driver). It's in fact this coloration that gives horns their classic "love or hate" characteristic. These days, few horn designs have this coloration but the stigma remains. The obvious improvements therefore come in the form of improving the evenness of the power response. In other words, design focuses on making sure the off-axis rolloff is indeed exactly as designed in every intended direction. It's this feature that separates the great modern horns from just generic ones used for amplification. This aspect can always be improved, hence horns, phase plugs and drivers will continue to be refined. Edited January 13, 2015 by DaveWJr 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That makes sense! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 k55 is a great driver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Titanium drivers are better?they sure are for pro use as titanium does not work harden as does aluminum alloy. That is to say that if you overdrive an aluminum driver and slap the phase plug with the diaphragm the diaphragm will become work hardened and will in short order shatter. The titanium diaphragm does not suffer this problem so will not be destroyed. Aluminum does have the advantage of being both stiffer and lighter and so its resonant break up modes will be a fair bit higher than titanium so more useful range before break up occurs. Most of the new Klipsch use ti diaphragms though I think some may be aluminum. The order for metal diaphragms is Titanium Aluminum Magnesium and Beryllium as far as mass and stiffness go. Lighter and stiffer is best. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The Palladium line uses Titanium in the tweeters and Aluminum in the mids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 This aspect can always be improved, hence horns, phase plugs and drivers will continue to be refined. You can make design trades but at the end of the day, you have to sell product. I thought the Avantguard Trio sounded pretty good but how many 70,000 dollar + speakers can you sell? Enough to keep the doors open? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 What I am getting at is there are two custom horns on the market that we all know about that offer better sound. One in particular utilizes almost the entire top hat of the K offering a much larger mid and really transforms the stock K55 into something much better. Im just wondering if the Heritage line is what it is for eternity? Maybe if we want higher sales in the Heritage line, we start updating these older components to justify the very high costs of today. Otherwise the public buys used, get the same sound as new and pays 20-25% of the retail cost of new and Klipsch makes nothing. Will Klipsch ever offer a new speaker that exceeds any of the fully horn loaded Heritage line? Maybe its time to expand on the Jub. Possibly a mini Jub that has a horn somewhere in-between the K-horn and the Jub and better looks? I get the marketing aspect and having to actually sell to the masses that could care less about anything Jub oriented or anything that large for that matter. Im just wondering when are we going to see something that floors the members here? The release of any of the Heritage line in the past 50 or 60+ years was REAL. Is the innovation and the drive for a remarkable release long gone with the true pioneer himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 "they sure are for pro use as titanium does not work harden as does aluminum alloy." Titanium also work-hardens, and then developes holes in the area of the suspension. Meyer Sound found that aluminum lasted longer in their rental systems than titanium. They bought new titanium JBL 2450's, removed and sold the diaphragm's, and replaced with JBL 2441 aluminum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That is interesting to know and the first I have seen, so this is new to me. Since I have read that longevity (non work hardening) was the reason for switching to titanium. Is the work hardening process slower with Titanium than with Aluminum? I am aware that very many people prefer by a wide margin the sound of the Aluminum alloy diaphragms over Titanium. What was the fuel which fed the fire to switch to Titanium diaphragm material? Thanks for the info. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I wonder if Carbotanium would be a good material for compression drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 "For example, in the case of the JBL 2450 4-inch compression driver, our modifications involved replacing the standard plastic connectors with more reliable gold-plated terminals and replacing the titanium diaphragm with an alternative aluminum alloy version for lower distortion. We also rebuilt and damped the stiff 'diamond' metal suspension to extend its life by reducing fatigue and also sealed the voice coil so we could use ferrofluid cooling to improve power handling. All these modifications were very time-consuming and costly to perform - making an expensive part even more so. We also felt vulnerable since we were a small customer of the only supplier." "A major goal of the driver design was to improve longevity. A standard (titanium) JBL unit would typically last about one to two years, depending on how hard is was driven and the environment in which it was used - under test, in particularly hard conditions, we found drivers sometimes failed after only 8 months! Even though our modified units achieved much greater longevity and lower failure rates, we really wanted to double the life of the driver, giving up to five years of reliable operation. The main failure mechanism of the JBL was fatigue of the diaphragm suspension - not through excessive power, because our electronics can control that very accurately - but because the metal 'diamond' suspension work-hardens as it flexes and bends." "For example, we had many choices of material to use for the diaphragm. Titanium has good high frequency response because it is very stiff but it also has relatively high distortion and tends to fatigue quickly. Pure aluminum has a much longer life cycle but its high frequency response is not so good. Beryllium has a good blend of qualities in terms of efficiency, longevity and frequency response, but has significant drawbacks that make it less than ideal for all but the most demanding applications. Our research eventually lead to an aluminum alloy that provided a satisfactory frequency response with a good life expectancy." (John Meyer) Carbotanium, looks good for cars. I doubt it would be good for a compression driver. Community and RCF have made CF diaphragms, neither do so at this time (except for a midrange driver, the M4). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 As usual, good stuff Dennis. The K-55 IS a good driver. Most rooms really don't need anything "better". The K-400 is fine too -- you just have the keep the power within reasonable limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The suspension cracks due to work hardening. The suspension is getting less flexible, and more brittle with every bend beyond the it's yield point. What if the suspension were never flexed beyond it's yield point? If the yield point were never exceeded, work-hardening would never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well its a good thing PWK wanted more out of K-horn or we wouldn't have the Jub, but not everyone can deal with a mid horn that is bigger than the dimensions of a LaScala. The 400 and 401 are ok, but the custom horn I have experience with is well beyond a 400 or 401. I also like the K55 and I would say it would be hard to beat for the money, but once again there are alternatives out there with less distortion and not a lot more money. I guess its hard for me to justify a $4500 speaker and the budget for the most important driver involved having a budget of under $100. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 "What if the suspension were never flexed beyond it's yield point? If the yield point were never exceeded, work-hardening would never happen." True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think Klipsch should improve the Heritage line. New midrange horns and tweeters, X-overs, who wouldn't want new K-horns, La Scala's, or Cornwalls ??? C'mon man, feed your hungry base of fanatics, we're starving here... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Max2 I own KHorns with the custom built top hat as you describe. Dave Harris Fastlane audio built the top hat with his 290hz wood horn w/K55 and the Selenium D220 driver w/Selenium baby cheek horn for tweeter. ALK AP12 / ES 5800 network. They sound tremendous but prior to buying these it had been decades since hearing a "OEM" KHorn, so how much of an improvement with a more advanced selection of materials? I have no way of knowing as I imagine an A B test with mine vs. stock will be difficult at best. A couple weeks prior to obtaining the KHorns I bought stock LaScallas which I think sound mighty fine. Different presentation but still mighty fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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