Buying modified KHorn's - good or bad idea

[Arkytype]

I can't speak to those mods as I know nothing about them.

 

Gosh, you've been a Klipsch forum member since February 10, 2004 and haven't heard of ALK's networks or Dave's great replacement horns?

 

But I would question whether they are still Klipschorns since 'nothing original' exists anymore, other than the wooden box that housed all the parts? 

 

I have proudly desecrated my Klipschorns (bought new in 1976) with Al's ES networks and Dave's Eliptrac 400 horns. Does that mean I don't own Klipschorns? I certainly wouldn't call them ALKhorns or Eliptrachorns......

 

And, as for your question of resale for me personally, I wouldn't purchase anything advertised as Klipschorns that were so heavily modified. 

 

Yeah, but who wouldn't jump at the chance to purchase a vintage Mustang/GTO/Chevelle/et al  all tricked out with a big block engine, disc brakes, heavy duty (safer) suspension, etc.? I'd still call it a Mustang/GTO/Chevelle and probably burn thru a set of tires a week.

 

Lee

[Guest Steven1963]

I can't speak to those mods as I know nothing about them.

 

Gosh, you've been a Klipsch forum member since February 10, 2004 and haven't heard of ALK's networks or Dave's great replacement horns?

 

But I would question whether they are still Klipschorns since 'nothing original' exists anymore, other than the wooden box that housed all the parts? 

 

I have proudly desecrated my Klipschorns (bought new in 1976) with Al's ES networks and Dave's Eliptrac 400 horns. Does that mean I don't own Klipschorns? I certainly wouldn't call them ALKhorns or Eliptrachorns......

 

And, as for your question of resale for me personally, I wouldn't purchase anything advertised as Klipschorns that were so heavily modified. 

 

Yeah, but who wouldn't jump at the chance to purchase a vintage Mustang/GTO/Chevelle/et al  all tricked out with a big block engine, disc brakes, heavy duty (safer) suspension, etc.? I'd still call it a Mustang/GTO/Chevelle and probably burn thru a set of tires a week.

 

Lee

 

Not sure where you researched that I've been a member here since 2004. If I had I would hope to have more than <500 posts.

 

As far as the rest of your post, to each his own.   But I wonder, if I took Klipschorns and stripped out everything and replaced it with cheap Radio Shack parts would you still call them Klipschorns or would you call them imitations? 

 

I think most people would say "those aren't Klipschorns!"

 

Or how about this: If I made a speaker to the exact specifications of the Khorn, but used better drivers and an upgraded network, would you call them Klipschorns or would you call them Stevehorns? 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Steven1963

[wvu80]

 

Or how about this: If I made a speaker to the exact specifications of the Khorn, but used better drivers and an upgraded network, would you call them Klipschorns or would you call them Stevehorns? 

 

 

SteveHorn has a nice ring to it, but good luck with that sale!

 

I think the term I've most often seen for upgraded Khorns is "Super K-horn."

+++

 

My opinion only, what kind of person buys what type of K-horn:

 

Stock K-horn at market price: - Average person.  Buys stock, listens stock, and would not touch the insides of the speaker.

 

Stock K-horn at below market price: - Knowledgeable audiophile looking to buy and plans/budgets to immediately upgrade caps, maybe CD's and XO's.  This person does not mind taking his speaker apart to do upgrades.

 

Super K-horn at above market price:  - Knowledgeable audiophile who knows what he is getting, and doesn't mind paying a  premium for the upgrades which are already completed.  The average person would likely not be interested in a modified speaker.

[Budman]

 

I can't speak to those mods as I know nothing about them.

 

Gosh, you've been a Klipsch forum member since February 10, 2004 and haven't heard of ALK's networks or Dave's great replacement horns?

 

But I would question whether they are still Klipschorns since 'nothing original' exists anymore, other than the wooden box that housed all the parts? 

 

I have proudly desecrated my Klipschorns (bought new in 1976) with Al's ES networks and Dave's Eliptrac 400 horns. Does that mean I don't own Klipschorns? I certainly wouldn't call them ALKhorns or Eliptrachorns......

 

And, as for your question of resale for me personally, I wouldn't purchase anything advertised as Klipschorns that were so heavily modified. 

 

Yeah, but who wouldn't jump at the chance to purchase a vintage Mustang/GTO/Chevelle/et al  all tricked out with a big block engine, disc brakes, heavy duty (safer) suspension, etc.? I'd still call it a Mustang/GTO/Chevelle and probably burn thru a set of tires a week.

 

Lee

 

Not sure where you researched that I've been a member here since 2004. If I had I would hope to have more than <500 posts.

 

As far as the rest of your post, to each his own.   But I wonder, if I took Klipschorns and stripped out everything and replaced it with cheap Radio Shack parts would you still call them Klipschorns or would you call them imitations? 

 

I think most people would say "those aren't Klipschorns!"

 

Or how about this: If I made a speaker to the exact specifications of the Khorn, but used better drivers and an upgraded network, would you call them Klipschorns or would you call them Stevehorns? 

 

 

i think Arky's talking about ritchie the OP joined in 04

[The Dude]

I look at the Klipschorn is more based on the bass bin.  I mean if different mid range horns and tweeters and crossovers are going to keep it from being a Klipschorn. Then Klipsch doesn't sell Klipshorns either as I know they don't put the original mid horn in there.  Yes they are non Klipsch modified Klipschorns, but I don't see any reason why you still couldn't call them Klipschorns. 

 

If you built a bass bin from scratch then I would say I your have a Klipschorn knock off.  I guess I could see it either way depending how far you want to go with it.

[Don Richard]

So if a McIntosh amp is repaired using components, tubes, etc. that are not the original brands used by Mac, it's not a McIntosh anymore?  

[Guest Steven1963]

So if a McIntosh amp is repaired using components, tubes, etc. that are not the original brands used by Mac, it's not a McIntosh anymore?  

 

This is my point and it goes to the unique-ness of the brand.  PWK wouldn't put his name on the Klipschorn cabinet I built would he? Even if I used better components? 

[Max2]

I look at the Klipschorn is more based on the bass bin.  I mean if different mid range horns and tweeters and crossovers are going to keep it from being a Klipschorn. Then Klipsch doesn't sell Klipshorns either as I know they don't put the original mid horn in there.  Yes they are non Klipsch modified Klipschorns, but I don't see any reason why you still couldn't call them Klipschorns. 

 

If you built a bass bin from scratch then I would say I your have a Klipschorn knock off.  I guess I could see it either way depending how far you want to go with it.

 

 

This is a debate that will never be answered.  A K-horn with better mid drivers, better tweeters, networks and larger wood mid horns will clobber a factory K-horn in lower distortion, better details and definition.  Im sure PWK would be tickled to death to see the audible improvements being made in his affordable  K-horn design instead of people moving on to the Euro horn market or something similar.

[Fjd]

OP, I hope you enjoy your new speakers. The modifications have been well-vetted on the forum over the years.

 

 

 

So if a McIntosh amp is repaired using components, tubes, etc. that are not the original brands used by Mac, it's not a McIntosh anymore?  

 

This is my point and it goes to the unique-ness of the brand.  PWK wouldn't put his name on the Klipschorn cabinet I built would he? Even if I used better components? 

 

 

 

Refreshing, another age-old forum debate yet continues with new blood……..I suppose it never hurts to re-hash.....

 

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your view too narrow; however, to carry your analogy, it seems that you are saying that since the resistors and capacitors were worn and replaced in my McIntosh MC30 amplifiers by someone other than McIntosh, I no longer have McIntosh MC30 amplifiers even when there has been no changes to the circuit?  If so, I would think that is too narrow of an interpretation. 

 

Back to the Klipschorn, not that the crossover, top-hat horns and drivers aren't important; however, I believe that in today's world, the bass bin is what required the engineering and requires all the complex woodwork and assembly.  In the case of the speakers that the OP is considering, those are original Klipsch built bass bins and in looking at the before pictures, were close to the scrap heap until Dave rebuilt/restored them and added a top-hat that was missing.

 

Essentially, I would tend to fall on the side of looking at the bass horn and maybe the overall “house curve” of the loudspeaker obtained through the voicing resulting from the crossover network settings as part of the intellectual property subject to clone, knockoff, copy, imitation, replica, reproduction, etc.

 

The K-400/K-401 is essentially a mathematical exponential flare and not something like the K-402 (because Roy has modified the mathematical tractrix equation with the K-402).

 

To me, compression drivers and woofers seem to be somewhere along the spectrum of commoditization rather than a clear distinction of “commodity” vs. compression drivers being a “differentiable product.”  Over the years, it seems to some that Klipsch was known for changing driver manufacturers more often than some people change underwear (well, maybe not underwear, but they bought drivers from multiple vendors over the years).  The forum is full of various "adventures" where someone opened up a completely stock Klipsch speaker and found a driver that was not expected.

 

Essentially, without new advances in loudspeaker transducer technology and knowledge, a compression driver may not ever be a "differentiable product" again as a person can find a multitude of drivers (with a little, or much, voicing work) that will work well in the setup. 

 

Since we are talking rhetorical (since I changed the resistors in my MC30s and no longer have McIntosh), if I bought Klipschorns from Klipsch and changed drivers, it would seem that a more logical description would be that I have a "modified" Klipschorn rather than a "cloned" Klipschorn.

 

Now if I built my own copy of the Klipschorn bass bin and built my own copy of the K-401 (not sure why anyone would try to knock-off the K-401 mid-horn with the choices available today?), then used Klipsch drivers, crossover, house curve settings, etc. what would I have? 

 

Probably what many would consider being better described as the "clone" Klipschorn, since calling them my "modified" Klipschorn doesn't seem to fit in this instance.....

 

Oh yea, I still belive that if I were to sell my McIntosh MC30 amplifiers, I would be safe in stating that they are McIntosh MC30 amplifiers that have been repaired by replacing the resistors that were out-of-specification.....

 

Here is the formal definition that I most commonly try to apply.

 

Knockoff /ˈnɑːkˌɑːf/

 

1. An inexpensive, sometimes illegal copy of a piece of well-known or popular merchandise (i.e. designer clothing, purses and watches.......and of course, sometimes Klipsch speakers)

 

2. Identical (and usually unauthorized but cheaper) copy of a patented, trademarked, or copyrighted product or work.

 

3. Competitive material or product that is functionally and qualitatively equivalent to a higher priced material or product.

 

4. An unlicensed copy of something, especially fashion clothing, intended to be sold at a lower price than the original.

 

Other common terms;

 

Copy

Clone

Imitation

Reproduction

Replica

Mock

Faux

Ersatz

Fake

Forgery

Counterfeit

 

Counterfeit consumer goods are by definition goods infringing the rights of a trade mark holder by displaying a trade mark which is either identical to a protected trade mark or by using an identification mark which "cannot be distinguished in its essential aspects from such trade mark".

Edited January 19, 2015 by Fjd

[Arkytype]

Not sure where you researched that I've been a member here since 2004. If I had I would hope to have more than <500 posts. 

 

I stand corrected, you've been a member since April, 2014. Too many windows open on too many monitors.

 

I can't speak to those mods as I know nothing about them. (ALK Engineering, Dave's Fastlane Audio)

 

It looks like you were at least aware of ALK's networks when you posted, Now I'm considering an ALK Extreme Slope upgrade for the lascalas. (sic) on May 6, 2014.

 

The Klipschorns you purchased did not have stock networks. So, rather than purchase exact replacements from Klipsch (or have them restore yours to stock), you chose to buy a pair of Dean's networks. By your narrowly defined definition you don't own Klipschorns.  Got those "Klipsch" logos peeled off your grille cloth? :>)

 

Lee 

[JBryan]

In my book, you have Klipschorns... heavily modified but 'Klipsch' nonetheless. Of course, I'm a bit biased but the core feature of Khorns is the bass bin and that is really all that's necessary to qualify. One of the main reasons to go with Khorns is that they are full-featured horn speakers at an entry-level price and I'd wager that there are plenty of us that came to this forum because we were looking for just that - big horn sound on a budget. 

 

I equate Khorns to the late 60's Nova in that both were well engineered, reliable and did what they were built to do well, yet were packaged to fit into a more pedestrian budget and therefore, required some rather pedestrian compromises to meet that criteria. What both products have in common is that while they perform well in their stock form, they are easily modified and can be made to perform well above their stock state. That's another reason we come to this forum - Klipschorns are very tweak-able and easy to work on - anyone can play.

 

PWK's claim to fame was and will always be his design of the folded-horn bass bin - a revelatory design that still holds its own today. In order to actually sell his bass bin, Paul finished it with the 'top-hat' and sourced the parts based on his engineer mindset -  the least expensive part that meets the required specs. In its stock form, the Khorn is a very competent and listenable system but with a few minor tweaks, the sound improves dramatically and there are a myriad of upgrades that can allow the Khorn to achieve much higher sound quality levels. At some point, the bass bin will become the compromising factor in the upgrade path but by then, you'll have spent a lot of time and money and may well have pushed it into a world-class speaker... or at least come mighty close.

 

Its difficult for a speaker that's essentially been in production for over 60 years to become collectible  - especially one that isn't stock so don't factor 'return on investment' in your purchase as that seems quite unlikely. The bottom line is that the Khorns you have (?) will most certainly sound better than stock and should afford you many years of enjoyable listening and if so inclined, will enable you to walk down the 'upgrade' path and tweak to you heart's content - and that's all the reason most of us need to own them. Have fun!

Edited January 20, 2015 by JBryan

[juniper]

I think its a very good idea. I heard Cut throats modded  khorns, they are amazing..... Much better than stock.

[Deang]

Hi Lee, If you're addressing Steve, then he's still stock. He's running a set of Type AAs. So, he's still listening to "Klipschorns".

These discussions are silly. There are stock Heritage loudspeakers and modified Heritage loudspeakers. A Klipschorn, or any of the other loudspeakers cease being stock when you, well, change them. I would say when the changes employed are such that the loudspeaker no longer maintains its original sonic signature, it is no longer the thing it originally was. So, If you change the horn, driver, or go with a network not designed by "Klipsch", then you have a "Modified Klipschorn", not a Klipschorn. I'm sure PK would thoroughly enjoy shoving a boot up someone's rear end for implying that the top section does not constitute a part of his loudspeaker.

Edited January 20, 2015 by DeanG

[Max2]

I think most engineers would look at the fundamentals, which means topology, design principle, and function to see if a "Widget" remains a "Widget" after someone has made changes. Changing a plastic horn to a wood horn, has no effect on the principle, unless the shape (expansion) changes. Then you have a different product. Changing the crossover frequency or slope, creates a new product. I say that, because clearly the designer puts great intent behind crossover and slope, and any choice is available. Therefore the INTENT is obvious. Changing one driver for another, is just a qualitative change, and I don't see that as functional. A "Klipschorn" has to meet PWKs original intentions, not the original measurements, I should think. If he wanted a different horn shape, he'd have chosen it. If he wanted a different crossover slope, he'd have chosen it. Choosing a driver or capacitor was just a matter of economics. It doesn't change design function.

 

Of course, the strictest interpretation is "original replacements only." And as for collector value, I think the rule is well understood - original samples with no changes, all original patina, no refinishing, no parts replacement. Even if it doesn't sound great. The collector wants original.

 

A lot of good points here. The K as well as the rest of the Heritage line did evolve to a certain extent. Numerous network changes among the whole line and steeper network slopes coming in around the later AL,AB and AK series. There was also a small improvement getting away from the Cast 400 going to the composite 401. I guess the cheaper material and in house building pushed for this , but it was by no means because people were covering the cast 400 in putty lol.  It makes you wonder if in time PWK  would have modded or made improvements to the K even though his big interest had moved on to the Jub.

Even though my K bass cab and its driver are the only thing left stock in my K's, I still consider them Klipschorns even if they're modded. The average Joe and probably a good amount of folks here couldn't hear the difference unless you told them    No one walks up and says your mods sound great without knowing about them, I don't care who you are.

[richieb]

These discussions are silly.

 

 

Silly - not really. Only silly when one believes he has all the answers. Asking for educated opinions from those who have owned the speaker of which I had not. I did not buy them with the idea of owning a "heirloom", I was asking from a sonic point of view. How many people here would pay a crazy asking price for a dead mint, never been moved for 30 years Klipschorns? And then change the networks so they sound right? There went your heirlooms. Are the latest Khorns "real" Klipschorns with closed backs, plastic horns, different networks, etc? Or would they be considered factory hotrods? It's a matter of semantics to a degree. What I DO know is for my limited three to fours hours of listening to my hot rod version Khorns I am over the top pleased. For what I paid in 99.5% mint condition, ALK networks and wood Fastlane midrange horn with baby cheek tweet horn and delivered to my door - I don't think I could want for more.

[minermark]

Not quite. And another reason I felt this a good opportunity for my first Khorns as they are being brought to my home, Monday morning. I really couldn't ask for more. 

And how's this for getting back in the Heritage horn game - LaScalla's delivered last Thursday and Khorns Monday. 

Man after my own heart!

Fire those puppys up and Report back ASAP

[Guest Steven1963]

Hi Lee, If you're addressing Steve, then he's still stock. He's running a set of Type AAs. So, he's still listening to "Klipschorns".

 

 

 

Lee...I suppose that is your name.  You sure seem to have a nit to pick with me and I don't know why... researching old posts I made and such.  Anyway, after Dean's post above, you are 0-2 on the nit picking. 

 

Have a good day! 

[Arkytype]

Steve,

 

I was only pointing out that:

 

What you posted on January 16th is at odds with what you posted in May 2014.

 

Your seeming disdain for any modifications to the Klipsch loudspeakers is a bit hypocritical.

 

You were aware of ALK's networks and were considering a purchase of Al's ES networks.

 

Lee 1 Steven 0

 

You not only installed non-stock parts in your Klipschorns, you started a topic entitled "My new DeanG networks" July 17, 2014 where you gave them a rave review. While (according to Dean) they are Type AA networks, they are not stock Klipschorn networks. Following the logic of your recent posts, your Klipschorns have "lost the unique-ness (sic) of the brand" and with the network upgrade, could be called Stevehorns. :>)

 

Lee 2 Steven 0

 

I agree with your statement to richieb re his purchase of Dave's restored Klipschorns, "But they are your ears and it's your money."

 

Since it's the bonus round, we'll leave the score tied at 2 all.

 

Lee

[Deang]

The Type AA is a filter circuit type developed by Paul Klipsch. I was told that they were for the most part built by the folks at the plant, who took the parts home at the end of the day and built them while they were watching television. Though we might use different parts (as Klipsch also did on occasion), Bob and me offer and build the Type AA circuit, and I guess the only thing missing, that critical thing that would determine if they are fit to be called "Klipsch crossovers" -- if is whether or not we were watching television while we were building them.

If Klipsch were to offer these, I imagine they would be called "stock replacements" -- what do you suggest we call ours? Well, I am cheating here a bit, since I normally do modify them, but Steve's weren't. At any rate, Klipsch doesn't offer the services you allude to -- people can't send in their older Heritage crossovers in for repair or replacement.

Drivers, horns and filters that have no association with Klipsch on any level, and radically change both the sound and measurable performance - are not "Klipsch". I don't understand why anyone would want to make an argument for this. Even more ridiculous is the attempt at putting cloned filter circuits in the same arena as completely re-engineered top sections. Seriously? There is a vast difference between attempting to bring something back to performing the way it used to -- and redesigning half of the loudspeaker. The latter certainly has less to do with The Man's name than the former does.

[mungkiman]

If they weren't hand built by PWK...