First Experience with Audyssey Calibration (not quite what I expected)

[Quiet_Hollow]

Just two things for clarification:

 

1.

After Googling the frequency response of the Audyssey mic I don't think I would hit a dog in the *** with it.

It was the Denon mic, sorry about that.

Doesn't matter. AVRs store the calibration files for the mics. With more expensive units, they are serially matched. That's why every manufacturer says,"Use only the supplied mic for measurement." ie. Don't throw it away.

 

2.

Audyssey wants to turn them down more than it possibly can.

This is a persistent misnomer. I know what you and many others are saying, but the play on words can end up confusing everyone. To clarify....

 

Trim levels are differential (ie. channel to channel). It's not turning down the volume at the listening position. Where level matching is concerned, all the software is trying to do is line up the preamp level inside the unit (-0 dB FS) to acoustic reference outside unit (-0 dB REF) in addition to adjusting each channel to one another. 12 dB of offset is all the software is allowed to use because of hardware constraints. All of this is happening well in advance of the volume knob.

 

I realize I might sound technical or anal, but using the correct jargon here keeps from mixing up the concepts (which are quite different), preventing further confusion where discussions of "loudness" are concerned.

[Scrappydue]

Just two things for clarification:

1.

After Googling the frequency response of the Audyssey mic I don't think I would hit a dog in the *** with it.

It was the Denon mic, sorry about that.

Doesn't matter. AVRs store the calibration files for the mics. With more expensive units, they are serially matched. That's why every manufacturer says,"Use only the supplied mic for measurement." ie. Don't throw it away.

2.

Audyssey wants to turn them down more than it possibly can.

This is a persistent misnomer. I know what you and many others are saying, but the play on words can end up confusing everyone. To clarify....

Trim levels are differential (ie. channel to channel). It's not turning down the volume at the listening position. Where level matching is concerned, all the software is trying to do is line up the preamp level inside the unit (-0 dB FS) to acoustic reference outside unit (-0 dB REF) in addition to adjusting each channel to one another. 12 dB of offset is all the software is allowed to use because of hardware constraints. All of this is happening well in advance of the volume knob.

I realize I might sound technical or anal, but using the correct jargon here keeps from mixing up the concepts (which are quite different), preventing further confusion where discussions of "loudness" are concerned.

im sure anyone participating in this thread thus far knows that wanting to turn them down all know I am talking about turning down the trim level. I mean that is what we are all talking about after all. I get your worry about other reading and being confused but I don't see my words really being too much of a "misnomer" as your saying.

[Scrappydue]

Posted a link to Audyssey...just received this response

Hello Michael,

The -12dB trim is a limit of the receiver. The pink noise from the receiver should measure 75 dB C slow at the main listening position with the volume at reference level.

An inline attenuator can be added to drop the level of the front speakers to within the receivers adjustment levels. Or you could manually calibrate all speakers to be 75dB C slow -4 dB Master Volume.

Best regards,

Audyssey Support

Sounds just as Scrappy described.

[garyrc]

With all of this hoopla going on about Audyssey I wonder how that tiny plastic supplied microphone checks out frequency response wise?

JJK

Audyssey builds mic compensation into the AVRs used.  I think.  I may have read this on Ask Audyssey Q & A.  Of course they would be building in comp for their mic with average response for that model.  Do they vary a lot, or a little?

[garyrc]

Went into Level calibration menu and here are my db readings with my meter using Onkyos test tones

Test tones

Mains were at 78-79db

Surrounds at 76db

Subs at 75db

 

Since you used the Onkyo test tone, your meter read the SPLs without the test tones going through Audyssey.  AVR test tones bypass Audyssey EQ compensation.  Using a test disc, or other source put into an AVR input would send the tone/noise through Audyssey.  Some people who have tried it both ways, find that in some rooms it doesn't make much difference, and in others, a great deal of difference, depending on how much comp -- and where in the spectrum -- Audyssey is putting the comp.

[JJkizak]

Just two things for clarification:

 

1.

 

After Googling the frequency response of the Audyssey mic I don't think I would hit a dog in the *** with it.

 

It was the Denon mic, sorry about that.

Doesn't matter. AVRs store the calibration files for the mics. With more expensive units, they are serially matched. That's why every manufacturer says,"Use only the supplied mic for measurement." ie. Don't throw it away.

 

2.

 

Audyssey wants to turn them down more than it possibly can.

This is a persistent misnomer. I know what you and many others are saying, but the play on words can end up confusing everyone. To clarify....

 

Trim levels are differential (ie. channel to channel). It's not turning down the volume at the listening position. Where level matching is concerned, all the software is trying to do is line up the preamp level inside the unit (-0 dB FS) to acoustic reference outside unit (-0 dB REF) in addition to adjusting each channel to one another. 12 dB of offset is all the software is allowed to use because of hardware constraints. All of this is happening well in advance of the volume knob.

 

I realize I might sound technical or anal, but using the correct jargon here keeps from mixing up the concepts (which are quite different), preventing further confusion where discussions of "loudness" are concerned.

 

I didn't know that the mic was calibrated for the AVR. Thanks for that info.

JJK

[garyrc]

 

colterphoto1, on 10 Jul 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Auto-calibrating for relative volume levels and eq, and THEN changing anything in the crossover would nullify the previous calibration, would it not?

From what I have read, not it does not nullify the previous calibration...just don't remember where I read it.

 

 

That can't possibly be correct. If you switched the front speakers, say, from Small to Large after calibration, you're now dealing with a couple of octaves of sound coming out of those speakers that weren't accounted for previously. 

 

It's like PA world - you adjust the crossover to get a basic balance various speaker components FIRST, then eq the system, and never ever go back and touch the crossover again. 

 

 

RE: Youthman, all of the manuals are confusing, and written with a dead stick's prose (thanks due to Norman Mailer).  The clearest treatment I've seen is the FAQ written by K Barnes, linc on the AVS "Official Audyssey" thread, in his signature.

 

RE: Colterphoto, here's what I think.   Audyssey EQs every speaker over its entire range down to its F3 point, regardless of crossover or "size."  Setting the crosover after calibration just determines how much of that range will be used.  As to selecting Small or Large, they can also be set after calibration -- in fact, some AVRs set any front speakers with decent bass response to "Large," (to flatter the owner on their speaker choice, according to Stereophile, march 2011, p58).  Audyssey, which sets neither crossovers nor speaker sizes, but simply shares its measurement of F3 with the AVR, and with you, via the screen read-out, strongly recommends resetting all speakers to "Small" after calibration. "Large" means "use the full, equalized or not equalized, range of the speaker in question, sending nothing to the sub, unless you are using LFE + Main  or "Double Bass" which means use the full range of speakers set to Large, and also send the bass below crossover to the subwoofer, as well".  "Small" means "roll off the given speaker at the crossover point, no matter when you select that crossover point (before or after calibration), and send frequencies below that to the subwoofer."

Edited July 11, 2015 by garyrc

[wvu80]

Thaddeus Smith, on 10 Jul 2015 - 09:47 AM, said: All speakers set to small if you have a sub.

 

Of course...my plan is to set all speakers to 80Hz. I was just sharing what Audyssey initially set them to.

 

Not necessarily.  Most AVR's have a setting for "Double-bass" where the low signal is sent to both the sub and the L/R running in Large mode.  I find that setting smooths out the bass for the entire room, but it is a lot less "punchy" if that makes any sense.  I have also found that even with a sub, running the L/C/R low like 40 or 60 can give males voices a little more depth, but that is a subtle observation.

 

The 80 is the de facto choice and you can experiment to see if setting to 70 or 60 for the various speakers is a sound you like.  I think even with a sub my center specs out at 60 and that is what Audyssey sets it to.

Edited July 11, 2015 by wvu80

[Ceptorman]

 

 

all of this is mute.

*moot

 

 

Ha!  That was the first time in my 39 years of existence that I had an opportunity to use that word and I blew it! 

 

Maybe "mute" was the correct spelling!

[Youthman]

Ok, tonight I saw that Expendables 3 was on Netflix so I figured I would give it a try first asis....just the way Audyssey set it up.

 

As it did previously when I had the Sherbourn 200 x 7, when setting the sub to 75db at the beginning of Audyssey, that meant turning the volume knob on the sub down to 1/4.  I turned the volume on the Onkyo to -4db and the bass was almost nonexistent.  I bumped the level from -6db all the way up to +3db and although it was better, it still wasn't enough.

 

So I went back into the levels and played the test tone for the mains and read the db level and then matched the rest of the speakers to the mains using my SPL meter.  I turned the subs back down to -6db like Audyssey originally set and increased the volume knob on the subs until they were level matched to the rest of the speakers.  That put the volume knob on the sub about 1/2 way.  It sounded much better but I'll likely bump up the trim on the sub 3db.

 

Overall it sounds great.  I'll try a few demos in the morning when the wife leaves for her 6 mile run.

 

Here are the original levels Audyssey set

 

 

 

And here are the current levels after level matching the rest of the speakers to the mains using my SPL Meter

 

[Youthman]

As you can see, I had to bump up my surrounds by 3db - 4db to level match the mains. 

[Scrappydue]

So I see you bumped all channels EXCEPT subs?

Nvm reread your post. Either I just have good luck with how my subs get set or EVERYONE likes more bass than me.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Scrappydue

[Scrappydue]

And also did you remember to set mains small? That will suck the bass away for sure?

[wvu80]

I am following this thread. 

+++

 

Did you listen at reference level?  I'm wondering because I am so unfamiliar with your LS trio, I wonder how loud you have to have things to get the horns to load.

+++

 

What other settings do you have in your AVR?  Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Loudness (or whatever it is called).  I know your Onk has more settings and features than you can shake a stick at.

[Youthman]

So I see you bumped all channels EXCEPT subs?

I increased the volume on the actual sub, not through the trim.  I figured if I bumped it up to +3 and it still wasn't "exciting", any higher than that might cause distortion.  I would rather be in the negatives than the positive on trim.

 

Either I just have good luck with how my subs get set or EVERYONE likes more bass than me.

There is NO doubt in my mind that if you heard my setup at 1/4 volume (what Audyssey said was 75db) and at -6db on the trim, you would be VERY underwhelmed in the bass department too. 

 

And also did you remember to set mains small? That will suck the bass away for sure?

Yes, I set all speakers to 80Hz.

 

Did you listen at reference level?

I listened at -4db which if I understand correctly, that is "Reference" for my setup.

 

I wonder how loud you have to have things to get the horns to load.

I have no idea what that actually means.  LOL.  I do know that when I first bought them, I found myself more times than not, turning them down instead of turning them up.  They get really loud, really fast.

 

What other settings do you have in your AVR? Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Loudness (or whatever it is called). I know your Onk has more settings and features than you can shake a stick at.

I just looked at the Onkyo website and it appears the 5008 does have Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.  I'm headed to the theater room to see if they are turned on.

[Youthman]

I just looked under Source Setup > Audyssey and both Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume were set to OFF.

[TasDom]

I just looked under Source Setup > Audyssey and both Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume were set to OFF.

Try setting Dynamic EQ to on and Dynamic Volume to light......works well for me.

[garyrc]

I just looked under Source Setup > Audyssey and both Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume were set to OFF.

 

Dynamic Volume a horrible thing, meant for those who are condemned to apartment living with thin walls.  It assassinates the very dynamic range that you will love with La Scalas and the RWS15 with Audyssey.

 

Dynamic EQ is a feature a lot of people like (but not me).  For movies, it is a very sophisticated, modern alternative to a (~~~Fletcher-Munson) loudness control.  Since I play movies at about 5 dB below Reference, and music at the SPL equivalent by ear of Reference (there is no "reference level" for music disks, because the music recording industry refused to go along with that degree of standardization -- some of them would rather compress, then play "loudness wars"), I don't need or want this kind of compensation, but I run my Klipschhorns at bass + 2 to + 6 dB bass boost (using tone controls -- the virtual sliders can't be used with Audyssey) and the RSW15 boosted about 7 dB (sometimes less) at the trim. 

[colterphoto1]

So basically you have a circuit in the pre-amp that's turning ALL your speakers down. I don't understand that at all. 

 

In YPAO, my speakers are adjusted to balance with some + and some -.  I should think that any good program should attempt to attain net average 0 gain. 

 

LS - 4.5 and -5

KLF-C7 + 5.5

CW - - 1.5 and -2

THX subs 0

 

My prime listening is somewhat equidistant from speakers hence the .5 difference L/R. 

[colterphoto1]

It shouldn't matter what db level you calibrate your speakers at, so long as it's well over ambient noise level. I could do mine at 55 db and get as good of response as I could at 75 or 95.