Guest Steven1963 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) If any one is interested in where the standard came from and how it came about you can go to this link to the landmark case, Graham v. Conner. http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1988/1988_87_6571 There is a link to the full written opinion, along with recordings of the oral arguments. Graham was reaffirmed in Plumhoff v. Rikard last year. You cannot understand how police shootings are reviewed and why cases are indicted or not unless you read, as a start, Graham. Thank you for this. I actually think that there should be a 13th year of High School. It should be dedicated to the study of the U.S. Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Bill of Rights. With in-class review and discussion of the landmark Supreme Court cases throughout our History. Complete with field trips to the Capital of your state and a tour of the State Supreme Courts. It is most fascinating stuff. We would be a very different country if people actually understood the intent and application of our laws. EDIT: I think I missed my calling. I would have enjoyed being a lawyer. Edited February 12, 2015 by Steven1963 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Everyone should do a few ride-a-longs these days, times have changed, you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. It's just not what we think it is, TV/Media has blurred reality. Do a few ride-a-longs and get back to me. see if you could live the life of an officer and what he/she faces daily. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thank you for this. I actually think that there should be a 13th year of High School. It should be dedicated to the study of the U.S. Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Bill of Rights. With in-class review and discussion of the landmark Supreme Court cases throughout our History. Complete with field trips to the Capital of your state and a tour of the State Supreme Courts. It is most fascinating stuff. We would be a very different country if people actually understood the intent and application of our laws. EDIT: I think I missed my calling. I would have enjoyed being a lawyer. Just my 2 cents, but all an education like that would tend to do is create some very articulate people who know legal jargon quite well but are still as confused as ever. Legal reasoning is fascinating until you finally conclude it is quite rudimentary. The only thing impressive is the jargon assigned to basic concepts, and when you get that down, it's pretty mundane and old-hat stuff. Not that I am saying it is unimportant. It is very important. It's just that it is about as far from science as you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Here's the money shot: "The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation." BANG! You're dead! Precisely! Bingo! Ding, ding, ding! In a nutshell... The more cops you have killing people, the more "objectively reasonable" such killing becomes. Killing becomes the de facto "standard." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Everyone should do a few ride-a-longs these days, times have changed, you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. It's just not what we think it is, TV/Media has blurred reality. Do a few ride-a-longs and get back to me. see if you could live the life of an officer and what he/she faces daily. This is very, very true. I can see why cops have to be very paranoid. Despite that my comments above might appear to be anti-law enforcement, this is not intended. I fully understand the dilemma and appreciate the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. Same thing applies to looking at a rock about to be thrown at a car apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Everyone should do a few ride-a-longs these days, times have changed, you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. It's just not what we think it is, TV/Media has blurred reality. Do a few ride-a-longs and get back to me. see if you could live the life of an officer and what he/she faces daily. Blah. They applied for the job, went through the training and know the risks. Not to mention they wear body armor. The odds are slanted favorably to them. At the end of the day if you can't handle the job without relying on killing someone throwing rocks in your direction then maybe you ought to choose a new career. Edited February 13, 2015 by Steven1963 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This is a relatively new news story, I suggest we wait for NBC's Brian Williams insightful commentary, before jumping to any conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Everyone should do a few ride-a-longs these days, times have changed, you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. It's just not what we think it is, TV/Media has blurred reality. Do a few ride-a-longs and get back to me. see if you could live the life of an officer and what he/she faces daily. Blah. They applied for the job, went through the training and know the risks. Not to mention they wear body armor. The odds are slanted favorably to them. At the end of the day if you can't handle the job without relying on killing someone throwing rocks in your direction then maybe you ought to choose a new career. A ride-along likely got my friend killed. I am not a fan of this. While doing a welfare check for a reportedly suicidal guy, a ride-along civilian saw this guy beating on furniture with a sword while walking around with a pellet gun in his house through the window, flipped out and yelled to the cop that this guy had a gun. Cop obviously wigged out, grabbed his AR, set up a barricade and started barking orders over the intercom. A few minutes later the guy had two 5.56 rounds in his torso. I often wonder what might have happened if this guy didn't wig out like that and actions were taken to cool the situation rather than escalate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Everyone should do a few ride-a-longs these days, times have changed, you pretty much can throw your current thoughts out the window when looking down the business end of a perps weapon, no matter the weapon. it's you or him. It's just not what we think it is, TV/Media has blurred reality. Do a few ride-a-longs and get back to me. see if you could live the life of an officer and what he/she faces daily. Blah. They applied for the job, went through the training and know the risks. Not to mention they wear body armor. The odds are slanted favorably to them. At the end of the day if you can't handle the job without relying on killing someone throwing rocks in your direction then maybe you ought to choose a new career. I have a feeling they will have a new career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 In a nut shell: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This is a relatively new news story, I suggest we wait for NBC's Brian Williams insightful commentary, before jumping to any conclusions. Wasn't Brian there? Didn't he get hit by a rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Protecting and serving the sh#% out of you. Well at least someone here gets it - although at the surface this seems highly excessive. Am I biased, you bet. My son is an officer in a smaller burb outside KC. I could have used many of the above quotes given but highly charged topics such as this usually turn into pis--- contests. Judging from many comments it doesn't appear anyone is involved in law enforcement or ever has been. If that is true you cannot or should not put yourself into the mind set of a law officer as you sit at your keyboard editorializing away as if you have walked the walk and talked the talk. Until you do its best to thank those that go out every night not knowing what lurks in the front seat of car or in the pocket of an enraged husband at a domestic dispute. I'd bet all of you that critique the general police population by the actions of guys in the video are the first to have 911 on your speed dial. When you neuter your police force hope you all have an ample supply of ammo and Big Stones for when you have to do the dirty work of protectiong for family and your neighbors. Just sayin - 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Protecting and serving the sh#% out of you. Well at least someone here gets it - although at the surface this seems highly excessive. Am I biased, you bet. My son is an officer in a smaller burb outside KC. I could have used many of the above quotes given but highly charged topics such as this usually turn into pis--- contests. Judging from many comments it doesn't appear anyone is involved in law enforcement or ever has been. If that is true you cannot or should not put yourself into the mind set of a law officer as you sit at your keyboard editorializing away as if you have walked the walk and talked the talk. Until you do its best to thank those that go out every night not knowing what lurks in the front seat of car or in the pocket of an enraged husband at a domestic dispute. I'd bet all of you that critique the general police population by the actions of guys in the video are the first to have 911 on your speed dial. When you neuter your police force hope you all have an ample supply of ammo and Big Stones for when you have to do the dirty work of protectiong for family and your neighbors. Just sayin - Precisely. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Protecting and serving the sh#% out of you. Well at least someone here gets it - although at the surface this seems highly excessive. Am I biased, you bet. My son is an officer in a smaller burb outside KC. I could have used many of the above quotes given but highly charged topics such as this usually turn into pis--- contests. Judging from many comments it doesn't appear anyone is involved in law enforcement or ever has been. If that is true you cannot or should not put yourself into the mind set of a law officer as you sit at your keyboard editorializing away as if you have walked the walk and talked the talk. Until you do its best to thank those that go out every night not knowing what lurks in the front seat of car or in the pocket of an enraged husband at a domestic dispute. I'd bet all of you that critique the general police population by the actions of guys in the video are the first to have 911 on your speed dial. When you neuter your police force hope you all have an ample supply of ammo and Big Stones for when you have to do the dirty work of protectiong for family and your neighbors. Just sayin - I'm sure your son is a fine upstanding officer. I, do not judge the police force as a whole. But I do know this: life is precious and should not be arbitrarily taken by a fully trained, armed, and capable first responder without first exhausting non lethal options - unless it is CLEAR that the officer is facing an armed opponent. From my couch potato point of view it seems that today's police force is trained and armed for all out combat. It used to be that people weren't afraid to call the police. That is no longer the case in many communities. Personally, I don't have 911 on my speed dial and yes, I do carry. Edited February 13, 2015 by Steven1963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am old enough to remember a different time. While the Andy Griffith Show, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best, etc., portrayed idealized views of American life, the important point is that they portrayed a view of America that was characterized by a high moral standard, traditional family values, and something for which to aspire, even if romanticized. What do we have today? Breaking Bad, Cops, and too any shows I was embarrassed to watch with my teenager. Movie producers covet an "R" rating as they know without it attendance will suffer. Shooting unarmed civilians, school shootings, children calling Family Services when they are disciplined, government blaming teachers for children who have no parental supervision or guidance to do homework, read, or engage in anything that does not involve mass carnage on a computer screen, are all part of the same macro issue. There is no moral compass that we can agree upon. Most anything is ok. We have come a long way in terms of basic issues of equality, but we have lost SO much in terms of basic standards of decency, responsibility and common morality. I am not a conservative, nor even a Republican, but I do miss the world of my childhood. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzydog Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I've understood for a long time now that it is not the job of the police to protect the citizen. Their job is to investigate crimes and arrest the perpetrators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 It was a homeless guy known to have mental deficits. This is really a senseless shooting. we must pray for all the families involved - God Bless - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am old enough to remember a different time. , but I do miss the world of my childhood. we all do - these were the good old days - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am old enough to remember a different time. While the Andy Griffith Show, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best, etc., portrayed idealized views of American life, the important point is that they portrayed a view of America that was characterized by a high moral standard, traditional family values, and something for which to aspire, even if romanticized. What do we have today? Breaking Bad, Cops, and too any shows I was embarrassed to watch with my teenager. Movie producers covet an "R" rating as they know without it attendance will suffer. Shooting unarmed civilians, school shootings, children calling Family Services when they are disciplined, government blaming teachers for children who have no parental supervision or guidance to do homework, read, or engage in anything that does not involve mass carnage on a computer screen, are all part of the same macro issue. There is no moral compass that we can agree upon. Most anything is ok. We have come a long way in terms of basic issues of equality, but we have lost SO much in terms of basic standards of decency, responsibility and common morality. I am not a conservative, nor even a Republican, but I do miss the world of my childhood. Great post Earl. I was watching the Buddy Holley story tonight and made the comment to my wife that I would've liked growing up back in the 50s. Simple times for sure. The emphasis was on the family structure, and they seem to stay together. I'm 52, and have four older brothers and one older sister, most in their 60s. They grew up just on the outside edge of what I consider the good ol days also. Btw…The Andy Griffith Show is still my favorite tv show ever! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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