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What is the purpose of a Vertical Cornwall?


Youthman
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I saw these on CL and realized they weren't the "typical" looking Corwall and remembered some comments about Vertical Cornwalls so I googled it and found the same images.  Just curious why would one want to rotate the horns vertical instead of horizontal?  I would think that limit drastically the dispersion of the horn.  Are they meant to be laid on their sides?

 

Usually, in the old days, as now, Cornwalls were upright (vertical).  EV recommended that their T35 (the K77 in Cornwalls and other original Heritage speakers were EV T135s after being selected by Klipsch, reportedly with quite a few rejected) be oriented with the long dimension vertical (which would be the case if a Cornwall with a vertically oriented tweeter was placed upright).  The reason usually given is that the horizontal dispersion is actually better that way, BUT if you look at the EV data sheet, you'll find that this is true ONLY over a limited range toward the bottom of the range used in a Klipsch product.  Also, either way, dispersion toward the bottom of a K77 is wider than at the top.  I don't know why Klipsch decided to turn the K77 and orient it horizontally, but I wonder if it was to make Heritage speakers sound about the same whether the listener was sitting down or standing, and also to cut down on reflections off the walls (as in "controlled directivity) ... just a speculation.

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the intent of the vertical cornwall was to have the option to stand them upright or lay them on their sides to fit under a window or whatever else was in the way in the home. usually they have painted red arrows on the back to show how this is done with the tweeter always on the top side when laying them on their sides. they even made a riser to fit on the sides if you choose to go this route. sometimes the badges came in a clear bag stapled to the back side of the speaker in case you wanted to do this. picture #4 shows this in these decorator k-horns on ebay

 

i've had 4-5 sets of them ( my 74's are verticals) and the badges were nailed on above the tweeter or in a bag on the rear. never saw any verticals made after 74

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Klipschorn-Speakers-/141651021934?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb0f106e

Edited by Budman
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The proof is that regular Cornwalls are time aligned...

 

If you remove the midrange horn/driver (either design of the CW) and place it on top of the speaker with the mouth sticking out in front and the midrange driver aligned with the tweeter, the CW will be closer to time aligned, but it still won't be "time aligned"...

 

Or you could time align the tweeter by removing it from the cabinet and placing on top at the back of the cabinet...then it might be even closer to time aligned, but still not quite.

 

The EV tweeter actually does perform better in vertical orientation, but it also takes up more room in a vertical T-M-W arrangement that way.  There is a good reason why vertical alignment of the drivers is used on every other Klipsch Heritage loudspeaker, and it has to do with polar lobing (vertical vs. horizontal).  If you make the effort to time-align properly using a digital active crossover (tri-amping), then you can readjust the vertical lobes to sum on-axis instead of the stock non-time-aligned versions that don't sum on-axis.

 

TM_lobe.gif

 

n160fig7.gif

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/89103-active-crossovers-a-different-perspective/

Edited by Chris A
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Upright or on its side is the CORRECT answer...for why they were made the way they were made. You need to remember how the WAF figures in to some of the designs of PWK...you ALSO have to remember that the Cornwall was ORIGINALLY designed to be a SUPPLEMENTARY speaker to a single K-horn in monaural systems, which were the predominant systems when it was introduced....the same goes for the Heresy speaker. Having a speaker that performs well upright or on its side will allow it to be laid on its side so that it can be under a table, for instance...or under a window sill...thus the WAF end of the spectrum. PWK designed a number of speakers to be supplemental speakers to the K-horn...either in monaural set-ups or as center channels in the stereo three-speaker array...but what he didn't really expect to happen was for them to be purchased in pairs for stereo, which is what happened more often than not. We had the old router forms set aside to be used whenever somebody wanted to build a mate to a single they had previously purchased...we would just rout out the motorboard and put it into the cabinet build as a horn/driver layout book-match (and, YES, we did this numerous times AFTER 1974...and at least thru September 1983, when I left the company). Eventually enough people wanted the so-called "verticals", that the Cornwall was made ONLY that way (for a very short period of time), and designated the "Cornwall II"....now we call a much more recent Cornwall the Cornwall II....confusing, isn't it??

Edited by HDBRbuilder
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why don't you grab a pair of Heresy and play with them 90 degrees and you can flip back and forth and listen to the dispersion characteristics of the horns in both orientations keep the woofer at the same height or as close as you can in both positions...

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Usually, in the old days, as now, Cornwalls were upright (vertical).  EV recommended that their T35 (the K77 in Cornwalls and other original Heritage speakers were EV T135s after being selected by Klipsch, reportedly with quite a few rejected) be oriented with the long dimension vertical (which would be the case if a Cornwall with a vertically oriented tweeter was placed upright).  The reason usually given is that the horizontal dispersion is actually better that way, BUT if you look at the EV data sheet, you'll find that this is true ONLY over a limited range toward the bottom of the range used in a Klipsch product.  Also, either way, dispersion toward the bottom of a K77 is wider than at the top.  I don't know why Klipsch decided to turn the K77 and orient it horizontally, but I wonder if it was to make Heritage speakers sound about the same whether the listener was sitting down or standing, and also to cut down on reflections off the walls (as in "controlled directivity) ... just a speculation.

 

 

what the heck did I just read?

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Usually, in the old days, as now, Cornwalls were upright (vertical).  EV recommended that their T35 (the K77 in Cornwalls and other original Heritage speakers were EV T135s after being selected by Klipsch, reportedly with quite a few rejected) be oriented with the long dimension vertical (which would be the case if a Cornwall with a vertically oriented tweeter was placed upright).  The reason usually given is that the horizontal dispersion is actually better that way, BUT if you look at the EV data sheet, you'll find that this is true ONLY over a limited range toward the bottom of the range used in a Klipsch product.  Also, either way, dispersion toward the bottom of a K77 is wider than at the top.  I don't know why Klipsch decided to turn the K77 and orient it horizontally, but I wonder if it was to make Heritage speakers sound about the same whether the listener was sitting down or standing, and also to cut down on reflections off the walls (as in "controlled directivity) ... just a speculation.

 

 

what the heck did I just read?

 

thats funny Schu

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It seems to me the design of that early CW was somewhat from the reasoning of EV. Remember this was somewhat the dark ages of design. No one was doing polar responses of three way drivers as outputs combined. EV was selling building block units to the home builder. You could start with a direct drive woofer, and then add a horn tweeter and then a mid horn. This started looking like CW components.

One thought was that drivers should not be equidistant from the edges so that edge diffraction did not gang up. Also, maybe drivers should not be too close. IIRC. So you see spacing which by more modern standards are oddball. But we do see in the early CW that whether situated landscape or portrait, the tweeter and mid should be at an elevated position.

As mentioned by others, just what was best dispersion was not a settled matter nor subject to actual measurements. Driver interaction to create odd polar response was not really settled either.

Importantly, this whole thing started before stereo became a standard. If you had only one speaker, there was no thought that a second one should be identical or a mirror image. The latter would require a left and right design and increased cost and I doubt anyone but the lunatic fringe could do this.

My guess is that PWK led the way with what was then called the CWII (you see that nomenclature in the early review) with drivers aligned along the center line and a standard portrait orientation. Of course he was advocating corner placement (except for center with a pair of K-Horns) and perhaps dispersion was therefore less of an issue.

We take stereo as ancient, old hat. But back in the day, it was cutting edge with attendant doubling of cost of amps and speakers and the new high-tech sources. Stereo records were more expensive, as were the cartridges. FM stereo was coming on line but receivers were expensive. You can sometimes see FM radios of the day with optional multiplex decoders.

I had an honorary aunt and uncle. Uncle John was a bit of a hi-fi nut. He mentioned that he wanted to buy an FM-stereo tuner. There were perhaps three or four stereo stations in the NYC area. Aunt Doris put on a face like she eating a lemon. WAF.

Smile and May the 4th . . . ,

WMcD

Edited by William F. Gil McDermott
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The EV 8HD horn that was used in a lot of early speakers (other than Klipsch), was a diffraction horn, and also designed to mount vertically, to get wider horizontal dispersion.

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This comes up every couple of years.  Mr. Klipsch's original thought was to have a center speaker which could be placed on its side under a window without blocking the view or stood on end and still have the tweeter as close to ear level as possible.  That dictated putting the T-35 in the upper corner.  As has been noted, early Cornwalls had red arrows on the backs of the cabinets indicating which side went up.  When people like me started buying them in pairs for stereo, Klipsch had to go to the effort of keeping the speakers together in mirrored pairs from the wood shop to the living room.  After about 15 years, Mr. Klipsch realized under window placement was no longer that big a selling point, especially since the instructions recommended against it, and it would be a lot less hassle to go with the format you see on the later CWs.

Urban legend holds the verticals image better.  Never been able to prove that one way or the other.  As for the dispersion, Mr. Klipsch said the orientation of the smaller horns "didn't make a dime's worth of difference."  It did and does on the K-400s, but not the Cornwalls' or Heresies.

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