One for the Educators in the crowd

[oldtimer]

IMO it's generational.  OGXers have been hosed by the same system that worked so well for the previous gen.  Yeah you guys are talking at cross purposes because the underlying assumptions are different.  It is easy to agree something has gone terribly wrong with a system that benefitted both society and individuals at one time.  The fix is not so simple.

[JL Sargent]

It doesn't matter what choice you might make when choosing how to educate your children, there will be compromises.

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

With 34 kids in a classroom, you are nuts.

 

Did you read what I wrote? Or, do you just like telling people they're nuts? LOL! Try especially 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and see if you can find me advising to teach "34 kids in a classroom."

 

None of those points solve any of the issues. Using these methods would take far more time to accomplish and drastically increase the room for error. Let alone, who manages and mandates the quality of education being received?

 

Less time, not more. Kids can learn at a far, far greater rate of intake than public schools provide. Manage? Why would someone need to manage it? Who is managing the education that all the dropouts are getting out on the street? Answer - no one. And yet, some become very, very smart. We're getting stuck in the old ideas that education is like building a Model T Ford on an assembly line. LOL! That's the whole trouble with the "public school" idea. It's ancient and doesn't acknowledge the modern world.

 

Let's assume I have a 6 year old kid here. Why do I need to have him in your assembly line? Why would I want your managers to be managing him? I'll set him off on very advanced creative works, that he enjoys and is intrigued by, and he'll learn because he wants to. Maybe building stuff, maybe art, maybe music, maybe programming or robots or writing or poetry? Each thing to learn will involve reading and probably some math. He will find his own talents and pursue them. Management by Joe Blow not needed.

 

We've become so accustomed to the idea that school is a "place" filled with "managers" and "testing" that we've lost the whole means of how people fundamentally learn things. Big Shots with Ph.D. in the FBI are perpetually amazed at the idea that a 12 year old can hack into government computers. They still think you need 8 years of university! That's just dumb thinking. You think all these Rusky hackers making millions of gullible Americans online went to college? Not likely. Learning occurs when internal passion drives goals. Little kids can learn very complex video games in a fraction of the time that their "educated" parents can learn them. Why? Because they have the passion for it.

[Jim Naseum]

IMO it's generational.  OGXers have been hosed by the same system that worked so well for the previous gen.  Yeah you guys are talking at cross purposes because the underlying assumptions are different.  It is easy to agree something has gone terribly wrong with a system that benefitted both society and individuals at one time.  The fix is not so simple.

 

The buggy whip was once a very useful tool. But, it's not now. But the Internet is.

 

Point: The world today is not what it was in 1850 when schools were more or less invented.

[oldtimer]

Big Shots with Ph.D. in the FBI are perpetually amazed at the idea that a 12 year old can hack into government computers. They still think you need 8 years of university! That's just dumb thinking.

 

And dumb hiring.  Nothing like only hiring the squeaky clean to catch criminals who think along entirely different lines.

[The History Kid]

.

So we just let everyone go and do whatever the hell they want? Are you serious? You don't see a problem with that? I want to live in your world.

[Jim Naseum]

.

So we just let everyone go and do whatever the hell they want? Are you serious? You don't see a problem with that? I want to live in your world.

Really? Did I say that? Lol!!

No, I didn't say that at all!

But, if you're having fun with that, go ahead and run with it! Lol!!

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[twistedcrankcammer]

With 34 kids in a classroom, you are nuts.

 

Did you read what I wrote? Or, do you just like telling people they're nuts? LOL! Try especially 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and see if you can find me advising to teach "34 kids in a classroom."

None of those points solve any of the issues. Using these methods would take far more time to accomplish and drastically increase the room for error. Let alone, who manages and mandates the quality of education being received?

Less time, not more. Kids can learn at a far, far greater rate of intake than public schools provide. Manage? Why would someone need to manage it? Who is managing the education that all the dropouts are getting out on the street? Answer - no one. And yet, some become very, very smart. We're getting stuck in the old ideas that education is like building a Model T Ford on an assembly line. LOL! That's the whole trouble with the "public school" idea. It's ancient and doesn't acknowledge the modern world.

 

Let's assume I have a 6 year old kid here. Why do I need to have him in your assembly line? Why would I want your managers to be managing him? I'll set him off on very advanced creative works, that he enjoys and is intrigued by, and he'll learn because he wants to. Maybe building stuff, maybe art, maybe music, maybe programming or robots or writing or poetry? Each thing to learn will involve reading and probably some math. He will find his own talents and pursue them. Management by Joe Blow not needed.

 

We've become so accustomed to the idea that school is a "place" filled with "managers" and "testing" that we've lost the whole means of how people fundamentally learn things. Big Shots with Ph.D. in the FBI are perpetually amazed at the idea that a 12 year old can hack into government computers. They still think you need 8 years of university! That's just dumb thinking. You think all these Rusky hackers making millions of gullible Americans online went to college? Not likely. Learning occurs when internal passion drives goals. Little kids can learn very complex video games in a fraction of the time that their "educated" parents can learn them. Why? Because they have the passion for it.

Most development happens by age 3!! That is the parents job to shape there Childs future.

I do not totally disagree with your home teaching process vs: the current state of our educational system.

Hell, we have gone down the drain so much in what public schools offer, such as advanced classes in chemistry actually using chemicals, beakers and Bunsen burners to actual shop classes like metals, woodworking and welding.

Not only is the curriculum no longer there, the meals they are serving are kids are total crap and even were prior to the current first lady, they are not even allowed to have metal silverware, plastic Knives, plastic forks only once in a while and only Styrofoam bowls, not the bowls that came with the tray.

Joe, IF you have a wide enough range of learning to properly educate your child, MORE power too you, I say great!!

BUT, My father was a history teacher first, then a Principle, then Superintendent over 3 different School systems, the last had the second highest operational budget in the state for AA sized schools. He was also treasurer and later, president of the county board of education. My mom was a first grade teacher with her PHD in education and a Masters in guidance counseling, so I was raised with a lot more insight on this then you have.

As stated before by others, "This is NOT an EASEY fix" and the largest problem we have and have had for decades is Federal Government intrusion. Just as the Federal Government has gotten involved with healthcare to the point that the Nurse and Doctor MUST spend more time charting than with the actual patient, so has it negatively affected the Teachers and their actual ability to perform their roles and actually teach and foster young minds.

Once again, IF you can give your kid a leg up, GREAT, but it is a HEII of a lot of work and you need to be proficient in a lot of areas!

Roger

[The History Kid]

.

Whatever you say guy. Stripping systematic approaches opens the door to plenty of problems and armchair "experts" in the field. Look at the internet, it's full of them...

I'm not saying private teaching is bad, I'm not saying all public schools are good, but what I am saying is without any kind of standards established and basic learning skills, knowledge doesn't mean squat.

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

 

 

With 34 kids in a classroom, you are nuts.

Did you read what I wrote? Or, do you just like telling people they're nuts? LOL! Try especially 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and see if you can find me advising to teach "34 kids in a classroom."

None of those points solve any of the issues. Using these methods would take far more time to accomplish and drastically increase the room for error. Let alone, who manages and mandates the quality of education being received?

Less time, not more. Kids can learn at a far, far greater rate of intake than public schools provide. Manage? Why would someone need to manage it? Who is managing the education that all the dropouts are getting out on the street? Answer - no one. And yet, some become very, very smart. We're getting stuck in the old ideas that education is like building a Model T Ford on an assembly line. LOL! That's the whole trouble with the "public school" idea. It's ancient and doesn't acknowledge the modern world.

Let's assume I have a 6 year old kid here. Why do I need to have him in your assembly line? Why would I want your managers to be managing him? I'll set him off on very advanced creative works, that he enjoys and is intrigued by, and he'll learn because he wants to. Maybe building stuff, maybe art, maybe music, maybe programming or robots or writing or poetry? Each thing to learn will involve reading and probably some math. He will find his own talents and pursue them. Management by Joe Blow not needed.

We've become so accustomed to the idea that school is a "place" filled with "managers" and "testing" that we've lost the whole means of how people fundamentally learn things. Big Shots with Ph.D. in the FBI are perpetually amazed at the idea that a 12 year old can hack into government computers. They still think you need 8 years of university! That's just dumb thinking. You think all these Rusky hackers making millions of gullible Americans online went to college? Not likely. Learning occurs when internal passion drives goals. Little kids can learn very complex video games in a fraction of the time that their "educated" parents can learn them. Why? Because they have the passion for it.

Most development happens by age 3!! That is the parents job to shape there Childs future.

I do not totally disagree with your home teaching process vs: the current state of our educational system.

Hell, we have gone down the drain so much in what public schools offer, such as advanced classes in chemistry actually using chemicals, beakers and Bunsen burners to actual shop classes like metals, woodworking and welding.

Not only is the curriculum no longer there, the meals they are serving are kids are total crap and even were prior to the current first lady, they are not even allowed to have metal silverware, plastic Knives, plastic forks only once in a while and only Styrofoam bowls, not the bowls that came with the tray.

Joe, IF you have a wide enough range of learning to properly educate your child, MORE power too you, I say great!!

BUT, My father was a history teacher first, then a Principle, then Superintendent over 3 different School systems, the last had the second highest operational budget in the state for AA sized schools. He was also treasurer and later, president of the county board of education. My mom was a first grade teacher with her PHD in education and a Masters in guidance counseling, so I was raised with a lot more insight on this then you have.

As stated before by others, "This is NOT an EASEY fix" and the largest problem we have and have had for decades is Federal Government intrusion. Just as the Federal Government has gotten involved with healthcare to the point that the Nurse and Doctor MUST spend more time charting than with the actual patient, so has it negatively affected the Teachers and their actual ability to perform their roles and actually teach and foster young minds.

Once again, IF you can give your kid a leg up, GREAT, but it is a HEII of a lot of work and you need to be proficient in a lot of areas!

Roger

We're just gabbing, so don't get mad. But, let's try to imagine how the following happens:

- parents discover little Joey, a 14 year old is under scrutiny as a hacker.

- parents discover little Mary, a 15 year old girl, has 2 million followers on her YouTube fashion channel.

-parents discover little Ben, a 16 year old has won a national robotics building contest.

All of that happens with no oversight, no managers, no one constantly watching them. They learn on their own, and from peers, who pass along expertise on the funny thing we call internet. Yes, at 2am while mom and pop are sleeping Joey, Mary, and Ben are sitting at their computers learning!

Right.... Not all of them. But the point I'd that all this talk of management is about behavior, not learning.

We don't need millions of generic educated kids. We need experts, artists, creators, and it matters almost not at all if they know who the 18th president was.

Mr. D. Trump recently said it this way: "I'll know what I need to know, when I need to know it, and don't fill my head with junk until I do, because everything changes! "

It's one of the best quotes of the past 10 years. He's right. That's what we can being ready and adaptive. It's modern.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Edited September 16, 2015 by jo56steph74

[Jim Naseum]

.

Whatever you say guy. Stripping systematic approaches opens the door to plenty of problems and armchair "experts" in the field. Look at the internet, it's full of them...

I'm not saying private teaching is bad, I'm not saying all public schools are good, but what I am saying is without any kind of standards established and basic learning skills, knowledge doesn't mean squat.

No offense sir, but that's 19th century. Today, 6 dudes who can write code earned 19 billion dollars for 28 months of work. Stacks of dudes with history PhD.s and countless certificates were scratching their arse trying to make $30k a year.

Understanding the present day is how I base my thoughts on education. Yes, the credentialed jobs still require formal education in institutions. There's already enough guys from India and China who will do that and get those positions. Doctors and dentists are the new worker bees. Smart guys don't want those jobs. They want to be entrepreneurs, Quant's, and creators.

I can argue that the greatest, most intrinsically valuable skill today is CODING. are they teaching that in 8 th grade? I think they are teaching algebra!!!! Lol

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[babadono]

 

So my advice, if your child still can get the correct answer then who cares if it differs from what you were taught.

 

The problem is that they grade the answer AND how you got the answer.  If you didn't perform the task how they taught you then you get marked off for it, normally 50% off of the correct answer.

 

Correct, they are teaching you HOW to think. Seems to be a lot of differences of opinion on that.

[twistedcrankcammer]

.

Whatever you say guy. Stripping systematic approaches opens the door to plenty of problems and armchair "experts" in the field. Look at the internet, it's full of them...

I'm not saying private teaching is bad, I'm not saying all public schools are good, but what I am saying is without any kind of standards established and basic learning skills, knowledge doesn't mean squat.

No offense sir, but that's 19th century. Today, 6 dudes who can write code earned 19 billion dollars for 28 months of work. Stacks of dudes with history PhD.s and countless certificates were scratching their arse trying to make $30k a year.

Understanding the present day is how I base my thoughts on education. Yes, the credentialed jobs still require formal education in institutions. There's already enough guys from India and China who will do that and get those positions. Doctors and dentists are the new worker bees. Smart guys don't want those jobs. They want to be entrepreneurs, Quant's, and creators.

I can argue that the greatest, most intrinsically valuable skill today is CODING. are they teaching that in 8 th grade? I think they are teaching algebra!!!! Lol

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

No offense dude but at best you are an armchair quarterback... Best of luck to your kids and I do not say that sarcastically, but your ideas have absolutely no real world application. I suggest you get out of the chair and try substituting in a REAL school, all it takes is a Bachelors in anything what-so-ever...

Roger

[The History Kid]

.

And remind me how many of those "dudes" there are again?

[Jeff Penley]

an example 3rd grade now 2nd week of school and barely into multiple digit subtraction

IMHO a SHINING EXAMPLE of the problem with Public School

math bullshit.PNG

A. There are many possible answers.

This is just wrong.

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

 

.

Whatever you say guy. Stripping systematic approaches opens the door to plenty of problems and armchair "experts" in the field. Look at the internet, it's full of them...

I'm not saying private teaching is bad, I'm not saying all public schools are good, but what I am saying is without any kind of standards established and basic learning skills, knowledge doesn't mean squat.

 

No offense sir, but that's 19th century. Today, 6 dudes who can write code earned 19 billion dollars for 28 months of work. Stacks of dudes with history PhD.s and countless certificates were scratching their arse trying to make $30k a year.

Understanding the present day is how I base my thoughts on education. Yes, the credentialed jobs still require formal education in institutions. There's already enough guys from India and China who will do that and get those positions. Doctors and dentists are the new worker bees. Smart guys don't want those jobs. They want to be entrepreneurs, Quant's, and creators.

I can argue that the greatest, most intrinsically valuable skill today is CODING. are they teaching that in 8 th grade? I think they are teaching algebra!!!! Lol

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

No offense dude but at best you are an armchair quarterback... Best of luck to your kids and I do not say that sarcastically, but your ideas have absolutely no real world application. I suggest you get out of the chair and try substituting in a REAL school, all it takes is a Bachelors in anything what-so-ever...

Roger

 

I don't have kids. And no, I would never be interested in substituting as anything in a government school. No interest in the archaic stuff at all. It looks like mostly behavior control, which is what to expect when you pile 34 anxious, energetic, young strangers in a room. BUT, I've taught very young kids informally many times, and was stunned by their uptake ability and drive to learn when they are interested in the work. I've never met many kids interested in sitting at a desk all day. 

 

I totally get the resentment of new and different ideas that challenge government authority. The government has done a stunning job for generations at getting the flock running in one direction and believing managed public school is what learning is about. I once thought the same way. It was only around 2000 when I began to see that just out of sight of most people's vision the world had dramatically changed almost over night. You have to look for it, because the education establishment has a lot at stake in maintaining the status quo in education. Millions of jobs and layers of control. And oh my, there's the publishing business too! It's all headed for the dustbin.

 

It's a good thing to discuss.

Edited September 16, 2015 by jo56steph74

[Jim Naseum]

 

.

And remind me how many of those "dudes" there are again?

 

 

"While others were playing with toy action figures, I was playing with amplifiers and speakers."

 

Guess who said that?

 

That's how independent learning takes place.

[Travis In Austin]

With 34 kids in a classroom, you are nuts.

Did you read what I wrote? Or, do you just like telling people they're nuts? LOL! Try especially 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and see if you can find me advising to teach "34 kids in a classroom."

None of those points solve any of the issues. Using these methods would take far more time to accomplish and drastically increase the room for error. Let alone, who manages and mandates the quality of education being received?

Less time, not more. Kids can learn at a far, far greater rate of intake than public schools provide. Manage? Why would someone need to manage it? Who is managing the education that all the dropouts are getting out on the street? Answer - no one. And yet, some become very, very smart. We're getting stuck in the old ideas that education is like building a Model T Ford on an assembly line. LOL! That's the whole trouble with the "public school" idea. It's ancient and doesn't acknowledge the modern world.

Let's assume I have a 6 year old kid here. Why do I need to have him in your assembly line? Why would I want your managers to be managing him? I'll set him off on very advanced creative works, that he enjoys and is intrigued by, and he'll learn because he wants to. Maybe building stuff, maybe art, maybe music, maybe programming or robots or writing or poetry? Each thing to learn will involve reading and probably some math. He will find his own talents and pursue them. Management by Joe Blow not needed.

We've become so accustomed to the idea that school is a "place" filled with "managers" and "testing" that we've lost the whole means of how people fundamentally learn things. Big Shots with Ph.D. in the FBI are perpetually amazed at the idea that a 12 year old can hack into government computers. They still think you need 8 years of university! That's just dumb thinking. You think all these Rusky hackers making millions of gullible Americans online went to college? Not likely. Learning occurs when internal passion drives goals. Little kids can learn very complex video games in a fraction of the time that their "educated" parents can learn them. Why? Because they have the passion for it.

Most development happens by age 3!! That is the parents job to shape there Childs future.

I do not totally disagree with your home teaching process vs: the current state of our educational system.

Hell, we have gone down the drain so much in what public schools offer, such as advanced classes in chemistry actually using chemicals, beakers and Bunsen burners to actual shop classes like metals, woodworking and welding.

Not only is the curriculum no longer there, the meals they are serving are kids are total crap and even were prior to the current first lady, they are not even allowed to have metal silverware, plastic Knives, plastic forks only once in a while and only Styrofoam bowls, not the bowls that came with the tray.

Joe, IF you have a wide enough range of learning to properly educate your child, MORE power too you, I say great!!

BUT, My father was a history teacher first, then a Principle, then Superintendent over 3 different School systems, the last had the second highest operational budget in the state for AA sized schools. He was also treasurer and later, president of the county board of education. My mom was a first grade teacher with her PHD in education and a Masters in guidance counseling, so I was raised with a lot more insight on this then you have.

As stated before by others, "This is NOT an EASEY fix" and the largest problem we have and have had for decades is Federal Government intrusion. Just as the Federal Government has gotten involved with healthcare to the point that the Nurse and Doctor MUST spend more time charting than with the actual patient, so has it negatively affected the Teachers and their actual ability to perform their roles and actually teach and foster young minds.

Once again, IF you can give your kid a leg up, GREAT, but it is a HEII of a lot of work and you need to be proficient in a lot of areas!

Roger

Then your Dad will tell you it was the federal government that created public education in this country, starting with the Northwest Ordinance. He will also tell you that the first six presidents, i.e. the "founding fathers" were all very strong promoters of public education. He will also tell you that no state is required to take federal funds, but if they do it comes with strings. Why does it come with strings? Because some states felt it is ok to spend less on education for schools that were predominantly one color or another. Some states and local school boards thought it was ok to spend a million dollars on a boys football team but nothing on sports for girls. Some states believed that special needs kids didn't deserve specialized teachers and programs to enrich their lives.

He will also tell you that the federal contribution to states is less than 8 percent of a state's total education budget. If what the federal goverment requires is so horrible why didn't they dump the federal funds and just raise taxes to make up the difference? Oh wait, that's right, school board members are elected, they are accountable. This isn't lost on Congress.

Ask your Mom and Dad how they feel about vouchers and charter schools. I have yet to meet a career teacher or administrator who is hot on the idea that those programs do away with the state monopoly on education and let the free market determine where the dollars go.

Congress tried to come up with an overhaul of No Child Left Behind, but they came up with two seperate bills that are completely different.

My answer. Require any legislator, federal, state or local to send their kids to public school. Cap legislator's saleries at the median teacher salary in their state or the District of Columbia for federal. Mandate that their pensions be a part of the teacher retiremnt system foe their state or in the District. They take as much time off as teachers do, if not more, that is perfectly fair.

[The History Kid]

.

And remind me how many of those "dudes" there are again?

 

"While others were playing with toy action figures, I was playing with amplifiers and speakers."

 

Guess who said that?

 

That's how independent learning takes place.

Yeah, and I've done more learning in the last 6 years AFTER employment in another job that actually was in the field you're referring to. Not to mention, what career am I going to get from that? Not a damn thing is the correct answer. It hasn't gained me fortunes now, it hasn't given me any certifications to come. It certainly isn't getting me a job, and it isn't teaching me squat about fundamentals. Your using me as an example is a poor one at best. Especially since you claim that someone like me should be able to do all kinds of crazy and unique things that I'm apparently just not telling you about.

I seriously can't stand that...you want to talk about "ancient thought" - yet you sit there and use a fancier version of just that. Do you realize how annoying it is when my mom says "How do you know all this stuff", when all I'm doing is opening the task manager and killing a program on her desktop? I've been exposed to it, so I happen to know how to make it work again. Happenstance learning is not independent learning. Don't confuse the two.

Edited September 16, 2015 by IbizaFlame

[Jeff Matthews]

You guys are mostly assuming there is a problem.  Why start with such a fallacy?

 

The system is working as it should.  We have millionaires in our society. Does that mean everyone should be a millionaire?  Does it mean the average person should be a millionaire?

 

This whole "education is key" thing is a bit overblown.  The world needs ditch-diggers, too.

 

Kids who are going to excel in education are going to excel, despite that the other kids are slowing down the classroom.  Make no mistake about that.  There is a place in our education system for everyone - all the way from the brain-dead to the genius.

 

I have a theory about all this talk concerning the failures of the educational system.  In short, the theory is "Poppycock!"  People just like to point fingers and search for blame because the world does not fall into whatever system of stasis they think they want to see.  My suggestion would be for one to get over one's self, to realize that there is a place suited for everyone and that looking for others to blame isn't going to get anyone very far.