New Chorus II owner with some questions and gripes

[akimball442]

I'll say in advance that this is my first post here, so this could be a bit long, and I apologize.  

 

About 3 or 4 years ago, I moved from the land of Dynaco A25s to a pair of Klipsch Heresy 1's.   At first I was pretty unhappy with that move, until I found out about setting tone controls flat, and using some good amplifiers. (well, good to me).

 

After awhile, my only complaint with the Heresys is one that come up a lot.  They sound bad with a sub, and on their own they're short of bass.  The only upgrades were a pair of new crossover caps in each speaker.

 

What I discovered with them, though, is that they excelled at what they WERE capable of, and I really enjoyed listening to them.  I still have them, with no plans to get rid of him.  I learned to notice a lot of things that were previously 'missing' in music that I've listened to for a very long time.  

 

My musical tastes range from some classical, to big band/jazz, to early rock & roll, to classic rock, and country music up until recently when it all went to hell.  I listen to a lot of Frank Sinatra, the Beatles, George Strait, etc.

 

In my quest for an upgrade, I assumed I'd end up with a pair of Cornwalls.  In my head, the Cornwalls were a logical upgrade to the Heresy, and being the bigger brother, I would guess they would have the same sound as a Heresy, but with added bass.  Maybe? Maybe not?  I don't know, because I haven't really had an opportunity to audition any.

 

So with only the internet to consult, I read and researched, and ended up purchasing a pair of very clean Chorus II's.   

 

Well, there's the bass I had been missing... in abundance.

 

But that's where the love ended. The midrange is painful with these speakers.  I quickly contacted Bob Crites, who admitted that harsh midrange was not a common complaint of the Chorus II.  I purchased replacement crossover caps, and the titanium diaphragms for the tweeters.  

 

As a side note, Bob Crites' service is exceptional.  His email responses are extremely quick, and his shipping is even faster.  A+ customer service.

 

I installed the crossover caps, figuring it can't hurt at 25 years old (The speakers were made in 1990).  The titanium diaphragms in fact do improve the HF extension, and sound quite good.  

 

So while the crossover caps didn't make any earth shaking improvements, the tweeters sound excellent, though I didn't really have a complaint about them to begin with.  The diaphragms are a relatively inexpensive and worthwhile upgrade for sure.

 

So what do I do about the midrange?  Is it true that nobody finds fault with it?   At times, I find it to be borderline painful.  Certain vocals sound like shouting, and certain electric guitars are just screaming, even at lower volumes.  My feeling is that there are some frequencies in the mid horn that are a few (or even many) dB above the rest of the speaker, and it's very, very annoying.

 

The most obvious example, I discovered while listening to the (1st) Chicago Transit Authority album- the song called "I'm a Man."  The song starts with the bass, and then some percussion, and among the percussion is a wood block.  It's absolutely HORRIBLE.  It's as though you're listening to the band play, and then someone comes up to your left ear and starts beating the wood block with a steel rod or something. Very unbalanced.

 

I feel like, more often than not, vocals seem to fall behind the instruments, something I've never experienced with horns before.  Bright instruments overpower the vocals.  It's very strange.  

 

What I have not done yet, is to get an EQ in the mix and figure out which frequency it is- but I have not experienced anything like this with the Heresys, and certainly not with any other speakers in the same environment.

 

I'm using a Magnavox 9300 series tube amp with no preamp for most listening.  It drives efficient speakers plenty loud enough, and it sounds very nice.  Occasionally, I'll use an older Onkyo TX2000 receiver, especially if I want to use phono.  I like the Magnavox better. 

 

I would love to hear experiences from others, as well as any suggestions to tame this bright midrange.  I don't want to go back to the drawing board, but maybe these speakers are not for me.  

 

Thanks for any suggestions,

 

Aaron

 

 

 

[derrickdj1]

I don't own the Chorus speakers but have the Forte's.  Many people find Klipsch to be bright.  My RF 7's was also a bit on the bright side.  What I have done and many other folks was adjust placement.  Don't aim the horns directly at the ear.  The speaker can be aimed to converge in front of the MLP or off to the shoulders.  This helps a lot.  A separate EQ system is not a bad Ideal, maybe even something that performs auto EQ.  The Chorus and Forte's are some of Klipsch best overall balance speakers.

Edited December 9, 2015 by derrickdj1

[J M O N]

I've owned Chorus IIs, and as Bob Crites suggested, didn't find any issues with a harsh midrange.  Could it be that there is something wrong with your set?  Also, what does your room look like -- do you have hard surfaces that are highly reflective?  Of course this would also affect your other speakers if that were the case but maybe the Chorus are impacted to a greater extent.

 

As a side note, I found I preferred the overall sound of Fortes (both I and II) over the Chorus II (this was surprising as the Chorus are supposed to be higher up in the food chain and I'm not sure anyone else has come to that same conclusion besides me).  Overall, the Cornwall is my favorite Heritage speaker outside of the Klipschorn.  If you do look into other models, I would suggest being on the lookout for Cornwalls (Klipschorns would be even better).

[DizRotus]

Welcome to the forum.

What happened to the A25s? IMO they were one of the best values of the 60s - 80s. They still sell for more than they cost new.

During a house party in the 70s, one fell off a shelf and hit the late great Brad VanPelt (before he played for The New York Football Giants) on the head. The A25 ended up with a dent on the corner. Brad ended up with a bump on the noggin. My friend cherished the dent for decades as he retold the history. Last I heard, one of his sons is still enjoying the A25s.

FWIW, I agree with the suggestions regarding placement and room treatment. Try temporarily hanging blankets on the side and rear walls to tame initial reflections to see what difference that makes.

Edited December 9, 2015 by DizRotus

[ricktate]

Could put damping on the mid horn.....check the seal [ if there is one I'm not sure ] between the mid driver and horn, I put O-Rings on my Scalas because the stock gasket sticks out into the  wave path. Check all connections by taking them apart and cleaning the surface. You did not say what power you were using so could be the amp. Maybe the mids need new diaphragms. Rick.

[Frzninvt]

You did not mention what you are using for a source.  If you are using a cheap Blu-Ray/DVD/CD player I would expect to hear the results your hearing.  Don't be so quick to blame the speakers as your system is only as good as its weakest link.

[Chris A]

So what do I do about the midrange? Is it true that nobody finds fault with it? At times, I find it to be borderline painful. Certain vocals sound like shouting, and certain electric guitars are just screaming, even at lower volumes. My feeling is that there are some frequencies in the mid horn that are a few (or even many) dB above the rest of the speaker, and it's very, very annoying.

 

The most obvious example, I discovered while listening to the (1st) Chicago Transit Authority album- the song called "I'm a Man." The song starts with the bass, and then some percussion, and among the percussion is a wood block. It's absolutely HORRIBLE. It's as though you're listening to the band play, and then someone comes up to your left ear and starts beating the wood block with a steel rod or something. Very unbalanced. I feel like, more often than not, vocals seem to fall behind the instruments, something I've never experienced with horns before. Bright instruments overpower the vocals. It's very strange.

 

What I have not done yet, is to get an EQ in the mix and figure out which frequency it is- but I have not experienced anything like this with the Heresies, and certainly not with any other speakers in the same environment.

 

You've covered some ground in your first post.  Congratulations...and welcome to the forum.

 

Consider the following:

 

The music that you have identified, above, is somewhat notorious for its very bright mastering.  The Chicago Transit Authority track "I'm a Man" is something that I found to be exceedingly bright and harshly mastered--in 1969 when I first heard it on some coaxial DIY speakers.  I've never been able to listen to it in its entirety until recently (this year) after remastering it using Audacity so that it is much more listenable and enjoyable. 

 

The following spectrogram of the track was generated after I recovered 7.1 dB of clipping from the track.  Note the areas that are pink in color, indicating a strong accentuation of midrange and high frequencies by the mastering engineers and the lack of bass.  I would find this track to be borderline unlistenable due to the accentuated highs and its lack of bass.

 

 

Here is the unmastering curve for that track that I applied in order to correct the excesses of the mastering done.  If you use a equalizer for your rig, note the levels of EQ required in order to correct this one track -- it's a pretty significant amount of EQ:

 

 

And here is the resulting spectrogram

 

 

I don't think that you've got a midrange horn or driver problem.  I think you've got a music problem that needs to be either EQed significantly at playback time, or unmastered once and for all to correct its extreme stridency and lack of deep bass.

 

YMMV.

 

EDIT: the version of this track that I used was Rhino CD R2 76171 (2002).

 

Chris

Edited December 9, 2015 by Chris A

[DizRotus]

I believe Chris is on the right track. Perhaps Chris could suggest a track that he knows is well mastered.

As good as they are, A25s are 2-way with a tweeter and a 10" woofer, so they might tend to hide the flaws that Chris described. The Klipsch would not.

Edited December 9, 2015 by DizRotus

[Chris A]

There are a few discs listed here:  https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/?p=1832549

 

Additionally, if you are willing to use the unmastering EQ curves in this database on any of these music tracks, you'll hear the difference between what you bought and what the musicians probably originally played before mastering: https://sites.google.com/site/dbremaster/

 

Chris

[wvu80]

The most obvious example, I discovered while listening to the (1st) Chicago Transit Authority album- the song called "I'm a Man."

 

The song starts with the bass, and then some percussion, and among the percussion is a wood block. (you call it a wood block, I think its a cow bell)  It's absolutely HORRIBLE. It's as though you're listening to the band play, and then someone comes up to your left ear and starts beating the wood block with a steel rod or something. Very unbalanced.

 

I like your description, that's how I describe speakers also, in terms of how instruments sound.  On my CF-4 two-channel setup, this is what it sounds like on the Youtube vid below. 

 

Bass guitar is solid but not well defined spatially L/R, then the drum set and Latin percussion comes out of the left channel.  I hear a clave coming in (hitting a wooden rod with another wooden rod)

 

then the cowbell or agogô bells which can be struck with a wood drum stick or a wood drum stick with a plastic tip.  The plastic tip makes that aggressive sharp sound you described and was all the rage in the 70's.  (I think it is a cowbell sound struck with a plastic tipped drum stick, the plastic tip giving it that sharp attack sound)

 

As I listen to the full vocals it comes out of the middle and it does sound muddy (hard to hear the words articulated) with the guitar and Hammond organ coming out of the right side.  The cowbell and claves sound balanced with each other, so the cowbell should not be accented any more than any of the other Latin percussion at this point.

 

If you can, listen to this Youtube vid and see if it matches my description (your vinyl likely is a much better recording)

 

 

+++

Edit:  I found the musical credits on Wiki, and it does point out they did use agogô bells, and cowbell.  I played percussion back in that era, and we were all influenced by the Chicago sound with Latin American percussion sounds and rhythms.

 

• Peter Cetera - bass, lead and backing vocals, agogo bells
• Walter Parazaider - saxophones, backing vocals, tambourine
• Lee Loughnane - trumpet, backing vocals, claves
• James Pankow - trombone, cowbell, brass arrangements
• Danny Seraphine - drums, percussion

+++

 

More Edit:  Would you believe "I'm a Man" is cited as an example of the use of cowbell? 

 

Chicago's cover arrangement features an extended percussion and drum section with a total run time of 7 minutes and 40 seconds, and is based around the blues-rock guitar playing of Terry Kath, the drumming of Danny Seraphine, the bass of Peter Cetera, the soaring Hammond organ of Robert Lamm and the horn players periodically switching over to auxiliary percussion instruments, such as claves, cowbell, maracas, and tambourine.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_Man_%28The_Spencer_Davis_Group_song%29

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by wvu80

[jimjimbo]

My personal recommendation would be Steely Dan's "Aja" album, (Song: I Got The News) and then any of their most recent albums which I'm sure are quite well done.

 

As has been stated above, a description of your room, flooring, furniture, drapes, ceiling height, etc, etc, and any acoustic treatment would be helpful.  Placement description, source, etc.  Pretty sure you came to the right place......

[mike stehr]

I'm using a Magnavox 9300 series tube amp with no preamp for most listening. It drives efficient speakers plenty loud enough, and it sounds very nice.

 

The Magnavox 9300 series is a 6BQ5/EL84 push-pull console amplifier. Designed for open baffle type woofers with tight cones that are mounted in the consoles. With a common Fs of around 50-60Hz with these woofers.

I have one I have used on Cornwalls. It sounds rather nice, but they are a bit anemic in the bass.

 

The Magnavox may be struggling to push that K48 woofer. And with the lack of low-end bass, the midrange and highs will sound more accentuated. It may be that the Magnavox just doesn't have enough low-end grunt to make the Chorus II sound balanced.

 

I had Chorus IIs, and that was my complaint...too hot in the midrange and highs. If one wants to listen to listen Chorus II with lower watt tube amplifiers, they are probably better off with Cornwalls, or up the power and size of the PP tube amplifier.

Just my opinion...

[jimjimbo]

Great info Mike!  ^^^^^^^^^

[akimball442]

Wow, a lot to take in here! 

 

I'll reply more later when I get home, but a few things..

 

I still have the A25's.  They're on my list of items that I'll never part with.  They're connected to an old Onkyo receiver in my dining room, and they're used for providing Christmas music and the like when I have company. 

 

I'm fascinated with the information on the mastering... I'll read more about it later, as well as check out the links provided.  How interesting that you had information on that particular track --  A side note- I have that album on both (very clean) original vinyl, and on CD.  I find the biggest difference between the two to be the bass, the bass is 'tighter' on the CD.

 

As for the Magnavox, it's not stock.  The transformers are from an Eico ST40, and aside from being larger than the stock transformers, provide taps for connecting 4-8-16 ohm speakers, rather than just the stock 4 ohms.

 

The amplifier keeps most of it's original soul, but with slight changes in coupling caps, the negative feedback, the transformers, and a greatly beefed up power supply, the amp is pretty flat through the audible spectrum.

 

More information can be found on this amp if you google "gabevee- Magnavox."  When I get to my computer at home, I'll link to his website.  He's a wealth of information on this amplifier, and many people regard it as quite good. 

 

Again, the main surprise here is that these speakers seem to be brighter than the Heresys.

 

Thanks for the replies so far!

 

Aaron

[Chris A]

How interesting that you had information on that particular track

 

No mystery there: I created it this AM from the ripped CD track from my disc collection.

 

I'd unmastered it much earlier this year but I didn't retain the EQ file or any information on how much clipping was present, so I did it again this morning as I was sipping my coffee.  It took just a few minutes.

 

Chris

[jjptkd]

I'm a long time fan of the Chorus II and prefer them over the Forte II because of the seemingly "extended" mid range. One thing I'd like to point out is that you have moved up quite a bit in terms of speaker sensitivity; I believe the original Heresy is 95db at 1 watt? where the Chorus II is 101db at one watt. This means bad recordings / source / equipment matches / room acoustics / speaker placement (pretty much everything listed above) become many times worse. Kind of like placing a magnifying glass over everything.

 

You have yourself one of the finest speakers ever made by Klipsch in my opinion and well worth the time to sort things out, you will be greatly rewarded if you do. Good luck, and welcome to the forum!

 

Jesse

[MORE KLIPSCH PLEASE]

Yea...I'm with jjptkd on this also....I love my Chorus i's and ii's ......

I power both my i's and ii's with big Carver power amps.....the Carver's imho bring out that "chest thump"

Oh yea......

Hey that's just me....

Welcome to the forum....

MKP :-)

[akimball442]

Time for another long post, after some experiments, and as I try to answer all of the unanswered questions from the various posts today.  

 

 

 

More Edit:  Would you believe "I'm a Man" is cited as an example of the use of cowbell? 

 

Chicago's cover arrangement features an extended percussion and drum section with a total run time of 7 minutes and 40 seconds, and is based around the blues-rock guitar playing of Terry Kath, the drumming of Danny Seraphine, the bass of Peter Cetera, the soaring Hammond organ of Robert Lamm and the horn players periodically switching over to auxiliary percussion instruments, such as claves, cowbell, maracas, and tambourine.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_Man_%28The_Spencer_Davis_Group_song%29

 

 

There's a joke to be made in there about "more cowbell!"

 

 

But all kidding aside, CLAVES was the correct answer!  I think the claves might be a memory I was trying to repress from high school band.  As a brass player, it's quite possible (even likely) that I did have someone whacking them together right behind my head at some point.

 

 

 

-----------------

 

 

Chris, I thank you for the EQ curve you provided.  I cannot remember the last time I used an EQ in my main system.  I have a Marantz EQ10 that has been in service in my garage system for a very long time.  Bose 501s really need it...  I use a Technics 8600 integrated amp out there with the Marantz EQ and those Bose speakers to provide enough power to overcome the air compressor and tools I use on a regular basis.  

 

I'm a diesel engine mechanic by trade, a guitar player (and collector) for fun, and an audiophile, because, apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

I blew the dust off the EQ and brought it into the house and connected it between my CD player and the trusty Magnavox. Luckily, there was an adjustment at or near each of the knee frequencies in the curve you provided, and I was able to get it close.

 

I played the Chicago track, and it was quite tolerable.  I have no way of knowing how accurate the Marantz EQ is as far as it's dB scale, and to be honest, I've never adjusted an EQ to a specific curve before today.  It's just something I've always done by ear.

 

I think the adjustment was TOO much, actually.  Certainly the bright midrange was gone, completely- but the track now sounded to me like it was a bit on the muffled side of things, and the bass was overwhelming.

 

A side note on the bass- clearly the old Magnavox doesn't struggle in this department, because with the 30Hz adjustment up to 12dB, there was LOTS of bass, and zero noticeable distortion at a fairly loud listening level.  These speakers certainly go down very low.

 

I then changed the adjustments to half, relative to zero, ie. if it was -6dB, I changed it to -3dB, and so on.   That was just about perfect.  Honestly, I couldn't find anything that I really wanted to change, I don't think it could have been better, which is encouraging.

 

The thing is, I find that MOST of the source material I have been listening to comes off as VERY bright in the 2-4 kHz range.

 

Using the EQ goes against everything I've read- it seems like everyone in the tube community wants to bypass tone controls- and you're not listening to it correctly if you are using tone controls.

 

But these speakers benefit from having those frequencies reduced by a few dB, on an overwhelming majority of the tracks I listened to this evening.  And actually, a bump on the 30Hz slider actually adds some nice bottom end without being obnoxious.

 

-----

 

I did listen to some tracks from the Aja album.  That's another memory- my dad played that album constantly!   I listened to quite a bit of Steely Dan, actually, and a lot of it does sound quite good with the EQ bypassed.   Some tracks did benefit from a reduction in the 2-4kHz range, like so many others.

 

I really think these speakers scream in that range.

 

-----

 

I'm quite interested in the Audacity software, and I intend to read about it after I finish with this post.

 

I just wish I could sit and enjoy music without being so critical!

 

 

 

Finally, I'd like to thank each of you who has given this thread your time- I really appreciate it.  Historically, 'newbies' on forums aren't given this much thought or consideration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by akimball442

[akimball442]

Oh!  I forgot to talk about the room/system.

 

The short answer is probably "less than ideal."

 

The Magnavox amp has been talked about enough.  For vinyl, I use an Onkyo TX2000.  It has the best phono stage that I have personally owned, and the rest of the preamp/amp is very nice.  I have not found a solid state amplifier that I liked and could afford, other than this one.  Since I can build and repair tube amps, my budget tends to make them my preference.  

 

My CD player is an older Pioneer 6 disc magazine system that I was given by a friend.  It works fine, I have no idea how 'accurate' it is.  If it's less than ideal, or someone suspects it may be, I'd be willing to get the model number for further scrutiny, or perhaps take suggestions as to what might (for a reasonable amount of money) become its replacement.

 

The turntable is a Technics SL1300 with Grado ZF3 E+ cartridge.  I've replaced the stylus with an upgrade, I forget which 'color.'

 

I often use a modified Dynaco PAS3 when I use a preamp.  If I'm switching between sources a lot, I use it.  When I say modified, I should say that I'm using a Dynaco PAS3 chassis to house some fairly popular boards.  The line amp is called the TCLA by a company that is called tubesforhifi.  It's nice, and very much flat with the tone controls centered. 

 

The room is probably a weak point.  My house was built in 1795.   I'm using the largest of the bedrooms for my listening/music room.  Old houses, no matter how large, often have small rooms.  This room is 14X16.  The speakers are on the 16' wall.  There are three (large!) windows, and my old sofa that the cat wrecked many years ago....   There are numerous guitars all over the place, and amplifiers.  

 

Where my butt lands in the pathetic old sofa, puts my ears level with the mid horns, and equidistant from each of the speakers.  Mono material sounds as if it's coming from directly in front of me, and I have a lot of it.

 

There are hard surfaces everywhere, it's less than ideal, but it's what I have to work with.  

 

This entire house has baseboard radiators, lots of windows to help with removing said heat, and just as many doorways.  There is not an ideal room anywhere for a perfect listening environment.

[jjptkd]

Sounds like you need some Bob Carver magic with his "Gundry Dip."

 

" I think part of this ability comes from an honest upper midrange and lower treble balance, one that does not skew things to make flawed recordings sound good. There is no so-called “Gundry Dip” which softens output a little in the 2kHz to 4kHz range, where the ear is most sensitive."

Edited December 10, 2015 by jjptkd