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jason str

Why horns.

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As far as distortion, the gap has close tremendously.  For example the UM 18 distortion figures from database.com are 2% or less from 30 Hz and up.  These number are great for recorded music.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=116&mset=128

True for the most part, it's under the multi-series charts tab. Even with a single one in a sealed box maxed out at 117 db it's only 2.76% THD at 35 hz.  And that's out in a yard, not in-room in a corner leaning on cabin gain like the horns are measured.  Which, is ridiculously low and would easily cover typical frequencies in music outside of synthetic dubstep. I love my sealed ultimax's for rock music, concert blu rays are very nice. You can't sell me on less distortion for music with these kinds of numbers.  Wish they were made in the US and had more like 100mm xmech, but I can't complain on rock music at all.  

Keep going lower while still driving them hard and the distortion shoots up, but, that's why you buy multiples. Plus, as shown in the study I posted on the other thread, it probably doesn't even matter.  Double plus: the frequencies in that entire left hand section of that chart is largely not even applicable for 15" horns.  

 

 

Think about it, maxed out at 117 dB.

 

The THT is coasting along in low single digit # of watts at that point, the cone is just barely moving and the sealed DR model is flopping around like a fish out of water.

 

What is your guess in what sounds better ?

 

Just as you can add more DR model subs into your system you can add more horns.

 

By the way your BFM horn is always measured in a corner speach has one flaw, it was hand picked by you out of tons of posted measurements taken.

 

Everything is clearly listed in plain english right in the SPL charts located >>here<<

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This really annoys me.

...sarcastic comments aren't needed.

Sorry, but he does. In multiple threads. Ones which include personal attacks that annoy me. Been told I sound stupid for pointing out something he admitted to in another thread. Been told I was deaf and dumb because I said I couldn't hear a 1.5% difference in subwoofer distortion at 20 hz at reference level while material was playing, which is silliness. Been called out for not hearing a horn yet he admitted to never hearing any of the systems he puts down on a seemingly daily basis, which is the pot calling the kettle black, instead basing his experience on dance club systems and car audio. I question the sanity of ignoring infrasonic material on modern home theaters and suddenly I'm a horn hater that Paul Klipsch would disapprove of. It's getting pretty old.

I'd be VERY happy with only discussing science and experiences. You're right, this stuff is not needed.

Coming from someone who's never even listened to a horn sub. Tubas are amazing. And I'd happily put my tubas against your sealed and see how they perform against one another. The only place your sealed setup would beat the THTs is under 15hz, which mine do in my 4500cuft basement. I've attached a sweep of my room: Blue is the front THT, Red is the rear THT, and Green is both. Not bad for two THTs in a 4500cuft basement with only 300 watts each. This sweep was done at -20 on the MV with the subs at -2 through the receiver. I'm more than happy to do the same sweep at reference.

I've been in some great rooms, Scrappy old HT before he re did his basement with 4 sealed 18s, Carps room with 8 sealed 18s, MaxMercys room with 8 sealed 15s and Lukeamdmans HT with 2 Ghorns and 2 Othorns. In my honest opinion, nothing beats horns for actually feeling bass waves. In Lukes room on the Pulse server scene you can actually feel the waves of bass rippling through you. We did the same scene with his 4 ported mains, and while it was impressive, it wasn't the same. Now, he will be getting 8 21" next week, and I am planning to go help him stack his 4 DO sealed boxes and his Othorns. Probably help him get the subs to play well together. So, I can't wait to see what that sounds like. However, Even with all that displacement, I still think the Ghorn + Othorn combo will beat it in the spl department. The new system will go lower, but the 4 horns will be louder. In a basement, I'll take spl over lower.

So if you've been in that area have you been to Doug's house? Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right, coupled with a measured response of over 140 db, and they were crossed over BELOW 25 hz. I have zero doubt those things are no joke and are in fact on my wish list. 13 sheets of baltic birch when I am hurting for workshop space is a hard pill to swallow though.

edit: your attachment didn't work.

It doesn't work because I deleted it and my post. I'm not going to piss into a 40 knot headwind with you.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any grammatical errors.

Edited by Rowan611

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Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right,

This:

 

 

Here's Tuba HT's accomplishing the same thing:

 

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Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right,

This:

 

 

Here's Tuba HT's accomplishing the same thing:

 

 

yes the first video. rowan has been to the house. its luke's place in minnesota. i have a hard time believing that the video of the tht is even close to the same as the top video. if you are talking a 15" driver taking 300 watts vs 2 18" LMS ultras getting 6000 watts each and 2 B&C I-PAL drivers getting 5000 each is the same thing your wrong. luke probably has one of the best most capable bass setups of anyone in the united states. top notch. but his setup is WAAAAY different than the tht being discussed. 

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This really annoys me.

...sarcastic comments aren't needed.

Sorry, but he does. In multiple threads. Ones which include personal attacks that annoy me. Been told I sound stupid for pointing out something he admitted to in another thread.

 

False

 

Been told I was deaf and dumb because I said I couldn't hear a 1.5% difference in subwoofer distortion at 20 hz at reference level while material was playing, which is silliness.

 

False

 

 

Been called out for not hearing a horn yet he admitted to never hearing any of the systems he puts down on a seemingly daily basis

 

False

 

 

which is the pot calling the kettle black, instead basing his experience on dance club systems and car audio.

 

More lies, keep them coming.

 

 

I question the sanity of ignoring infrasonic material on modern home theaters and suddenly I'm a horn hater that Paul Klipsch would disapprove of. It's getting pretty old.

 

 

Its the horn hate & not listening to the facts & posting misinformation that is getting old.

I'd be VERY happy with only discussing science and experiences.

 

 

Or just posting more lies & misquotes about what i have been saying like you have been doing all along, all people have to do is read it for themselves.

 

You're right, this stuff is not needed.

 

Coming from someone who's never even listened to a horn sub. Tubas are amazing. And I'd happily put my tubas against your sealed and see how they perform against one another. The only place your sealed setup would beat the THTs is under 15hz, which mine do in my 4500cuft basement. I've attached a sweep of my room: Blue is the front THT, Red is the rear THT, and Green is both. Not bad for two THTs in a 4500cuft basement with only 300 watts each. This sweep was done at -20 on the MV with the subs at -2 through the receiver. I'm more than happy to do the same sweep at reference.

I've been in some great rooms, Scrappy old HT before he re did his basement with 4 sealed 18s, Carps room with 8 sealed 18s, MaxMercys room with 8 sealed 15s and Lukeamdmans HT with 2 Ghorns and 2 Othorns. In my honest opinion, nothing beats horns for actually feeling bass waves. In Lukes room on the Pulse server scene you can actually feel the waves of bass rippling through you. We did the same scene with his 4 ported mains, and while it was impressive, it wasn't the same. Now, he will be getting 8 21" next week, and I am planning to go help him stack his 4 DO sealed boxes and his Othorns. Probably help him get the subs to play well together. So, I can't wait to see what that sounds like. However, Even with all that displacement, I still think the Ghorn + Othorn combo will beat it in the spl department. The new system will go lower, but the 4 horns will be louder. In a basement, I'll take spl over lower.

So if you've been in that area have you been to Doug's house? Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right, coupled with a measured response of over 140 db, and they were crossed over BELOW 25 hz. I have zero doubt those things are no joke and are in fact on my wish list. 13 sheets of baltic birch when I am hurting for workshop space is a hard pill to swallow though.

edit: your attachment didn't work.

 

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In Lukes room on the Pulse server scene you can actually feel the waves of bass rippling through you.
it helps a lot that he has zero bass in the front so he sits in the back. my bass is much stronger in the back row. but harley tolerable to me as it sounds so out of calibration. way overwhelming.
We did the same scene with his 4 ported mains, and while it was impressive, it wasn't the same.
this is because his mains drop hard around 22-25 hz and most of that scene is below that. so that is why it was cool but different.  

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Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right,

This:

Here's Tuba HT's accomplishing the same thing:

yes the first video. rowan has been to the house. its luke's place in minnesota. i have a hard time believing that the video of the tht is even close to the same as the top video. if you are talking a 15" driver taking 300 watts vs 2 18" LMS ultras getting 6000 watts each and 2 B&C I-PAL drivers getting 5000 each is the same thing your wrong. luke probably has one of the best most capable bass setups of anyone in the united states. top notch. but his setup is WAAAAY different than the tht being discussed.
He had, until he sold the Ghorns. Yes, Luke's horns are monsters compared to the THT. That being said, he is 100% impressed by the THT and what it accomplishes with only 300 watts.

I've pushed my subs hard. And they never distort or make any strange sounds. Think about how many sealed subs I'd need in my basement to accomplish what 1 THT did for 2 years and what 2 are doing now.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any grammatical errors.

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In Lukes room on the Pulse server scene you can actually feel the waves of bass rippling through you.

it helps a lot that he has zero bass in the front so he sits in the back. my bass is much stronger in the back row. but harley tolerable to me as it sounds so out of calibration. way overwhelming.

We did the same scene with his 4 ported mains, and while it was impressive, it wasn't the same.

this is because his mains drop hard around 22-25 hz and most of that scene is below that. so that is why it was cool but different.
He has more bass in his front row than he realizes. I sat in the front during the GTG and can attest that his front row has bass, just not compared to his back row.

Yeah they drop off pretty fast. But, as you know he didn't build them to go low. They're huge now, lol. No room for anything bigger....lol

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any grammatical errors.

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He has more bass in his front row than he realizes
i didn't think so. there felt like there was none under 40 hz which is a deal breaker for me. either move subs which he can't or compromise second row for great single row. but he likes sitting in the back i think. 
He had, until he sold the Ghorns.
didn't know that. i haven't chatted with him in a while. 

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I was hoping this thread would stay a little more on the science relating the pro's and con's of the different sub type but, it's taken a different direction. :(   Buy or make what you like and like what you buy or make!  One thing for sure, I have heard kick *** systems of horns and DR subs.

Edited by derrickdj1

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I was hoping this thread would stay a little more on the science relating the pro's and con's of the different sub type but, it's taken a different direction. :(   Buy or make what you like and like what you buy or make!  One thing for sure, I have heard kick *** systems of horns and DR subs.

 

Derreck the science is out there, just read post #6 from Quiet _Hollow and look for information posted in the second sentence.

 

Its all easily available to find information on the subject with a quick search. :emotion-21:

 

Edit: Sorry i meant 3rd sentance.

Edited by jason str

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Ok, what am I missing here? Why is it important if you can flex your door or make a table jump? Sounds like when you see a car drive by with his trunk rattling from his bazooka tube sub.

I personally have sealed subs because they fit in my environment. Although PWK clearly felt horns are superior he didn't completely write off DR as evidenced by the Heresy, Cornwall, and extended Heritage line. I love horns as well, but DR fits in some applications.

There are clearly merits to both designs but why does it seem that the issue has just become how LOUD will it go? Most of us listen to music in the 70-80db range with peaks around 95-100. I would imagine a lot of subs would have no problem at those levels.

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PWK didn't have access to explosion films, nor do I think he would have concerned himself about the ultra low frequencies involved.

While I don't enjoy exaggerated "bass" at intersections, I can understand the desire to go low and loud in an HT environment.

Nonetheless, I'm totally satisfied with the flat to 25 Hz capabilities of my 4 TH subs. I don't need SPLs above 95 db. Music and movies sound excellent to me.

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I have heard Luke's system, it rattles 2"x4"s in adjacent rooms.... Luke is a bass freak, might be addicted to it!!!!

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Ok, what am I missing here? Why is it important if you can flex your door or make a table jump?

 

Its not important at all.

 

Sounds like when you see a car drive by with his trunk rattling from his bazooka tube sub.

 

Not done right if the trunk is rattling around, sometimes just the license plate.

I personally have sealed subs because they fit in my environment. Although PWK clearly felt horns are superior he didn't completely write off DR as evidenced by the Heresy, Cornwall, and extended Heritage line. I love horns as well, but DR fits in some applications.

 

If you don't have room, you don't have room but when you have speakers the size of refrigerators you need a subwoofer that is able to keep up as some like it loud and a small sub is not going to do that.

There are clearly merits to both designs but why does it seem that the issue has just become how LOUD will it go?

 

Overhead & the ability to crank it up.

 

Most of us listen to music in the 70-80db range with peaks around 95-100. I would imagine a lot of subs would have no problem at those levels.

 

Sound is paramount in my opinion, horns just happen to get loud very easily.

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I was hoping this thread would stay a little more on the science relating the pro's and con's of the different sub type but, it's taken a different direction. :(   Buy or make what you like and like what you buy or make!  One thing for sure, I have heard kick *** systems of horns and DR subs.

 

Derreck the science is out there, just read post #6 from Quiet _Hollow and look for information posted in the second sentence.

 

Its all easily available to find information on the subject with a quick search. :emotion-21:

 

Edit: Sorry i meant 3rd sentance.

 

 

I read up on the subject before and that was not my point.  I am like the one post, who cares what is going on at 130 db or higher.  within normal operating rage using the max THX of 115 and redirected bass maybe 121 db.  DR and horn system can do that equally well.  I can hit the mid 130's on my system but, I never use it that way.  It is fun for short demo's but, I like my hearing, lol.  The question is where are people hitting 115 db.  If remember the acceptable range is 31.5 - 63 Hz.  This is plenty for most people with movies and music.

 

Some of us HT enthusiast are in the ULF and want to hit 115 db clean at 10 or 15 Hz.  I have heard horn subs loud like DR and one explosion sounds like the next.  With music in the acceptable range, using the UM 18 as an example, 2% or less distortion is well below the 10% limit where the majority of people start to detect distortion.  This forum most likely follow a normal bell shape distribution of peoples hearing ability.  As stated, if you can hear the difference between 1.5% and 2.5% It would be superhuman hearing that 99.9% of the population does not possess. 

Edited by derrickdj1

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I was hoping this thread would stay a little more on the science relating the pro's and con's of the different sub type but, it's taken a different direction. :(   Buy or make what you like and like what you buy or make!  One thing for sure, I have heard kick *** systems of horns and DR subs.

 

Derreck the science is out there, just read post #6 from Quiet _Hollow and look for information posted in the second sentence.

 

Its all easily available to find information on the subject with a quick search. :emotion-21:

 

Edit: Sorry i meant 3rd sentance.

 

 

I read up on the subject before and that was not my point. 

 

You asked for the science, i Quiet_Hollow clearly mentioned this. 

 

If its not the science what determines the difference between designs I'm not sure what else you meant by using the term.

 

 

From post #6

 

The data is already there. The Klipsch library, papers by JBL, Toole, Geddes, Leach, Allen, books by Yamaha....yet people instead insist on cherry picking (what are essentially) editorials by industry armchair quarter backs.

 

Maximum acoustic power across the bandwidth, IMD, impulse response, phase response measured for compare....it's all been hashed out already. Flat out ignoring all that research under the recent context is going to cultivate some pushback.

 

I am like the one post, who cares what is going on at 130 db or higher. 

 

I agree, not needed in the home.

 

 

within normal operating rage using the max THX of 115 and redirected bass maybe 121 db.  DR and horn system can do that equally well.

 

If volume is the only objective, yes.

 

  I can hit the mid 130's on my system but, I never use it that way.  It is fun for short demo's but, I like my hearing, lol.  The question is where are people hitting 115 db.  If remember the acceptable range is 31.5 - 63 Hz.  This is plenty for most people with movies and music.

 

Some of us HT enthusiast are in the ULF and want to hit 115 db clean at 10 or 15 Hz.  I have heard horn subs loud like DR and one explosion sounds like the next. 

 

Explosions may not be the best testing method to judge a subwoofer.

 

With music in the acceptable range, using the UM 18 as an example, 2% or less distortion is well below the 10% limit where the majority of people start to detect distortion

 

You have mentioned this numerous times but fail to mention at what dB this was taken at so the point & numbers are pretty much useless in the world of ratings.

 

I feel the 10 % distortion number is a poor start to begin with.

 

.  This forum most likely follow a normal bell shape distribution of peoples hearing ability.  As stated, if you can hear the difference between 1.5% and 2.5% It would be superhuman hearing that 99.9% of the population does not possess. 

 

Its easy to detect if you are used to living with lower numbers, one who is used to hearing distortion may not be able to judge the difference.

 

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I do not have any measuring equipment, it is not something I care to check. The sealed F3 spec's for a 3 cu ft box are 37hz. Others that installed the same speaker in a 6 cu ft box claimed a lower f3 point but I am too lazy to find the claims. It is plenty low for me and I just wanted a sub that did not boom and would fill in where my LaScala's fall off pretty rapidly. The super lows are not that important to me as others like, I am more of a great mid range guy with a decent bottom end. There are certainly better more expensive ways to get superior lows, it is just my belief as a I have stated cost vs performance it is the best way to go. I do not like a tuned port bass but it satisfies most of the commercial sub buyers. If anyone checks for commercial sealed subs you will find them not that common. They will not go as low as a port sub but they are generally quicker with better transients if you have a really well made speaker and plenty of power.

What subs are you referring to here? Just curious. The debate on weather a sealed sub is "quicker" than its ported counterpart is all BS. Are you really trying to tell me that your sealed sub is faster and sound better than say a Rythmik FV15HP? Or, are you saying an SVS PB13 Ultra is slower and sloppier? I won't even list subs from PSA, Reaction, and JTR. Sealed subs are no quicker than a well designed ported. You might not like port chuffing....but as far as speed and accuracy is concerned, there is no difference.

As for a horn - which in NOT a ported sub, lower distortion and effortless bass. At the same db a horn will be using less watts, and the cone will be moving less. For horns you just need room and the patience to build one. Look at the one Jason is building for himself. I'm betting it doesn't take up that much more floor space as your sealed. So, you can have horns fit into a confined space. If you wan midbass, it's hard to beat a horn with just a single sealed.

Edited by Rowan611

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Infrasonics are a big part of movies today.

 

I use the "sub sonic" but I don't even know if that is right.

 

Is my term incorrect, or is your term more correct, more commonly used?

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