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jason str

Why horns.

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Is a horn sub a good match for the new electronic stuff, both music and movies?

Sure, but most HT crowd just want the walls to shake and do not care that much for the quality of the bass and certainly the little woman wants the sub to disappear from sight. Certainly there a few audiophiles that want better but they are in the minority. Two channel listening audiophiles tend to want better not quantity.
i wouldn't say most. I'd say 50/50. With a lot of the nicer offerings from the ID companies people are getting quality bass for a 700+ product. Trust me when I say ALL the guys I know that have stacks of 18's prefer quality bass. Just cause we have a lot doesn't mean we want quantity. We like headroom. Plain and simple. Just a different approach to less distortion as having a horn is to you. And also my 18's take up much less room than a horn.

 

 

 

Are all your 18's in a free air setup scrappy, or are they each in their own cab or one big cab?  I would love to see some pics of the setup.

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Is a horn sub a good match for the new electronic stuff, both music and movies?
Sure, but most HT crowd just want the walls to shake and do not care that much for the quality of the bass and certainly the little woman wants the sub to disappear from sight. Certainly there a few audiophiles that want better but they are in the minority. Two channel listening audiophiles tend to want better not quantity.
i wouldn't say most. I'd say 50/50. With a lot of the nicer offerings from the ID companies people are getting quality bass for a 700+ product. Trust me when I say ALL the guys I know that have stacks of 18's prefer quality bass. Just cause we have a lot doesn't mean we want quantity. We like headroom. Plain and simple. Just a different approach to less distortion as having a horn is to you. And also my 18's take up much less room than a horn.

Are all your 18's in a free air setup scrappy, or are they each in their own cab or one big cab? I would love to see some pics of the setup.

each in their own cab. If your on a computer you can click on my sub build and home theater build in my signature which has links to all pics

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it seems multiple large subs are required.

They are. The elephant in the room is that this has always been the case....just that 40 years of marketing has most people convinced otherwise.

 

Is a horn sub a good match for the new electronic stuff, both music and movies?

Yes. As far as any system is concerned, there is no delineation. The system is either capable or not, regardless of method. There is no more requirement for sub bass in todays music than there was in early live organ recordings. Not to imply the content is the same, just that required system capability is.

 

Sure, but most HT crowd just want the walls to shake and do not care that much for the quality of the bass and certainly the little woman wants the sub to disappear from sight. Certainly there a few audiophiles that want better but they are in the minority. Two channel listening audiophiles tend to want better not quantity.

I agree with Steve on this. Most serious HT owners I've met want/need both. Movies are comprised of both music and effects. Contrary to popular belief, if a particular system sucks at music then it just plain sucks. It's a two-way street.

 

The squiggly line is a tuba HT with a 15" sub in it. The solid line is that same sub loaded up in a sealed box but without the horn. This was his answer to "what is the maximum response". First, notice the ski slope response below 26 hz. Secondly, notice the area around 15 hz which is a perfectly legit concern for movies nowadays. Yeah you still get a maybe 4 db boost from the horn but you're also nearly 30 db down from its peak at that point. 30 decibels. This isn't something that can be fixed with a DSP, its just gone.

A smoother plot is not better in this case.

 

The "ski-slope" is formally the roll-off rate below Fb (the box resonant frequency) or Fc (The horn cut-off frequency)...and it's the same rate for both a sealed box and front-loaded horns.

 

Thirdly, at 15 Hz the horn still has more output. Every dB counts, even if it's a fraction of one. That is, after all, what we're really paying for.

Infrasonics are a big part of movies today. You don't get that with horns and you're right it's a big consideration for HT. It's a non issue for music.

Completely over-rated IME....even for music. My findings are that the spectrum that's encoded in most action movies of the last two decades is completely unrealistic. Hollywood has got that all wrong....and yes, the right horn can definitely get there.

 

But...

 

Truth is the TRW-17 simply owns everything below 30 Hz, and I personally wouldn't consider anything else knowing this technology is out there. It cannot be stressed enough, these things have an established reputation for breaking entire homes and pissing off entire neighborhoods. Performance that is completely off the charts.

With a horn, you either need to filter the stuff out below the tuning frequency of the horn (and lose part of the .1 soundtrack) or the horn will actually amplify the distortion the horn creates trying to reproduce sounds below the fs of the box.

This argument only holds water so long as we completely ignore what a direct radiator is doing under the same circumstances. It's an absolute mess down there where equivalent dynamic drivers are concerned, across the board. At least the horn has some degree of composure.

 

That is why the integration of the woofer and the midrange drivers is so critical to getting a good-sounding speaker."

This should be the biggest selling point for a good front-loaded horn as they can be completely seamless. But often times people mess it up, then blame the horn.

 

I could go on for days.... There's literally reams of data on this stuff compiled over the last 80 years. It's not new. One person's experience (or even two or three) isn't going to cut the mustard. A lot of really good people have been working on this stuff for decades.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they were on to something.

 

* edited for spelling

Edited by Quiet_Hollow
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As far as distortion, the gap has close tremendously.  For example the UM 18 distortion figures from database.com are 2% or less from 30 Hz and up.  These number are great for recorded music.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=116&mset=128

True for the most part, it's under the multi-series charts tab. Even with a single one in a sealed box maxed out at 117 db it's only 2.76% THD at 35 hz.  And that's out in a yard, not in-room in a corner leaning on cabin gain like the horns are measured.  Which, is ridiculously low and would easily cover typical frequencies in music outside of synthetic dubstep. I love my sealed ultimax's for rock music, concert blu rays are very nice. You can't sell me on less distortion for music with these kinds of numbers.  Wish they were made in the US and had more like 100mm xmech, but I can't complain on rock music at all.  

Keep going lower while still driving them hard and the distortion shoots up, but, that's why you buy multiples. Plus, as shown in the study I posted on the other thread, it probably doesn't even matter.  Double plus: the frequencies in that entire left hand section of that chart is largely not even applicable for 15" horns.  

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

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Very happy with my F20s and they mate seamlessly with either Khorns or quarter pies, I cannot hear where they transition at 50 HZ. While it is true they are big, so are bass horns, so if you have room for one you probably have room for the other. The nice thing is how easy they are to build and how cheap as well. Three sheets of decent plywood (just bought some at Menards for $34 each that would be perfect for this application and USA made to boot) and a driver. About as easy a build as I have ever undertaken. Yes, they only go down to 20 HZ (a solid 20 HZ BTW) but at that point the house is jumping around enough anyway I really wouldn't want to go lower, and man is the sound clear and clean in only the way a horn can produce.

 

BTW that TWR-17 is really sick, I would love to hear one (in someone else's house).   :wacko:

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Truth is the TWR-17 simply owns everything below 30 Hz, and I personally wouldn't consider anything else knowing this technology is out there. It cannot be stressed enough, these things have an established reputation for breaking entire homes and pissing off entire neighborhoods. Performance that is completely off the charts.

 

I've yet to hear (feel) one but would absolutely love to.

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Truth is the TWR-17 simply owns everything below 30 Hz, and I personally wouldn't consider anything else knowing this technology is out there. It cannot be stressed enough, these things have an established reputation for breaking entire homes and pissing off entire neighborhoods. Performance that is completely off the charts.

?? Where did this come from? That's a $12,900 device with a $10,000-ish chamber and the entire setup can be up to $26,000 according to multiple articles. Good Lord, it better perform. This topic was brought up because Jason keeps talking about the amazing Tuba's. It's not intellectually honest in a debate to praise all horn subs because a $26,000 setup is pretty badass and actually does have a flat frequency response. Just not in the same league as the stuff that brought this topic up.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer#MHP27VGSOwBRzY7o.97

If we're going to go there, we should consider the 4.5 foot wide horn sub that the Army parks out in the woods and uses to simulate actual helicopter landings.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

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Is a horn sub a good match for the new electronic stuff, both music and movies?
Sure, but most HT crowd just want the walls to shake and do not care that much for the quality of the bass and certainly the little woman wants the sub to disappear from sight. Certainly there a few audiophiles that want better but they are in the minority. Two channel listening audiophiles tend to want better not quantity.
i wouldn't say most. I'd say 50/50. With a lot of the nicer offerings from the ID companies people are getting quality bass for a 700+ product. Trust me when I say ALL the guys I know that have stacks of 18's prefer quality bass. Just cause we have a lot doesn't mean we want quantity. We like headroom. Plain and simple. Just a different approach to less distortion as having a horn is to you. And also my 18's take up much less room than a horn.

Are all your 18's in a free air setup scrappy, or are they each in their own cab or one big cab? I would love to see some pics of the setup.

each in their own cab. If your on a computer you can click on my sub build and home theater build in my signature which has links to all pics

 

 

 

Well duh,  I guess I could have looked at your sig a little closer.  Man I bet those things don't flex.  Impressive built boxes, but I guess they have to be that strong with the monsters bolted in.   Im gonna xheck out the build in depth when I get home tonight

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Are all your 18's in a free air setup

 

Mine are B)

 

 

 

How many?  Are they backed in an attic and ceiling/wall or?

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Are all your 18's in a free air setup

 

Mine are B)

 

 

 

How many?  Are they backed in an attic and ceiling/wall or?

 

 Four 18's (in my sig) mounted to a wall in my living room.  The back wave goes into the attic.

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There is no direct radiator subwoofer composed of a single driver cabinet that can beat one good horn loaded sub cabinet with the same size driver.

I don't think anybody would claim this, but that's a pretty limited comparison. The only real comparison would be between a single 15" horn and multiple larger DR's which is what keeps coming up here. Best I can tell in such a lineup, and feel free to add to this or correct me if it's wrong:

15" horn pro's:

very low cost if you build it yourself

very low distortion at high volumes for everything above 20 hz

very efficient and loud, above 20 hz

proven designs that can't go wrong with if you do your part while building are available

apparently you can blend with the mains easier on music? Not sure why.

15" horn cons:

pretty large and unwieldy

complicated build process

not the prettiest things to look at, not very many look high-end

the footprint is not very flexible in terms of placement, hard to fit one under or behind a screen where one ought to be

with only one you still have room mode issues you need to smooth out with a DSP but it seems like nobody does

^^ most likely hard to justify multiple units then spread them out which is the best way to smooth this out

response below 20 hz is pretty futile

multiple DR pros:

if you go DIY it's hard to screw up the boxes, especially with sealed

easy to integrate several due to small footprint, which smooths out room modes, lowers distortion by spreading the load out, and extends frequency response to about as low as you want to go

easier to add additional units if you wanted to start with 1 and add more later

can easily be as sexy looking as you want them to be

transducer technology is so good nowadays that distortion can rival a horn on typical musical frequencies, even when driven as hard as possible

the larger distortion numbers in the sub-bass realm have been proven to just not matter much at all

should be far superior for infrasonic content

multiple DR cons:

the good stuff starts getting expensive REAL quick for anything other than DIY

^^ DIY can still be expensive

distortion can easily be in the low double digit range below 25 hz if driven hard

if you don't go DIY or spend big bucks, there's lots of inferior subs out on the market. Several crappy subs just means extra crap.

otherwise, I'm kind of at a loss.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

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For cost vs performance it is hard to beat the combination of pro 15" in a sealed enclosure. Throw 500 watts of Class D at it and it works for me when I want really low bass. I probably cross lower than most and use it sparingly and never let it start booming. I like clean sharp low bass. I put my sub speaker in a bigger box than most would consider, almost 6 cubic ft. but I do not have to worry about the WAF. I spent maybe $600 diy and one like it would cost retail much more and it is really not that hard for most to build. Most home wood outlets will even cut the wood to your spec's and all you have to do is glue and screw it together with some good braces inside. Plenty of how to on the web. Seal the joints with silicone rubber in the inside for a tight seal. Countersink the screws, fill with wood putty and apply a finish.

Completely disagree. How low are you getting with a single 15 in a sealed design with 500 watts? Honestly, I'm curious.

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This really annoys me.

...sarcastic comments aren't needed.

Sorry, but he does. In multiple threads. Ones which include personal attacks that annoy me. Been told I sound stupid for pointing out something he admitted to in another thread. Been told I was deaf and dumb because I said I couldn't hear a 1.5% difference in subwoofer distortion at 20 hz at reference level while material was playing, which is silliness. Been called out for not hearing a horn yet he admitted to never hearing any of the systems he puts down on a seemingly daily basis, which is the pot calling the kettle black, instead basing his experience on dance club systems and car audio. I question the sanity of ignoring infrasonic material on modern home theaters and suddenly I'm a horn hater that Paul Klipsch would disapprove of. It's getting pretty old.

I'd be VERY happy with only discussing science and experiences. You're right, this stuff is not needed.

 

Coming from someone who's never even listened to a horn sub. Tubas are amazing. And I'd happily put my tubas against your sealed and see how they perform against one another. The only place your sealed setup would beat the THTs is under 15hz, which mine do in my 4500cuft basement. I've attached a sweep of my room: Blue is the front THT, Red is the rear THT, and Green is both. Not bad for two THTs in a 4500cuft basement with only 300 watts each. This sweep was done at -20 on the MV with the subs at -2 through the receiver. I'm more than happy to do the same sweep at reference.

I've been in some great rooms, Scrappy old HT before he re did his basement with 4 sealed 18s, Carps room with 8 sealed 18s, MaxMercys room with 8 sealed 15s and Lukeamdmans HT with 2 Ghorns and 2 Othorns. In my honest opinion, nothing beats horns for actually feeling bass waves. In Lukes room on the Pulse server scene you can actually feel the waves of bass rippling through you. We did the same scene with his 4 ported mains, and while it was impressive, it wasn't the same. Now, he will be getting 8 21" next week, and I am planning to go help him stack his 4 DO sealed boxes and his Othorns. Probably help him get the subs to play well together. So, I can't wait to see what that sounds like. However, Even with all that displacement, I still think the Ghorn + Othorn combo will beat it in the spl department. The new system will go lower, but the 4 horns will be louder. In a basement, I'll take spl over lower.

So if you've been in that area have you been to Doug's house? Scrappy has a video of two G-horns making a dining room table in the other room dance around probably about 3-4" off the floor if I remember right, coupled with a measured response of over 140 db, and they were crossed over BELOW 25 hz. I have zero doubt those things are no joke and are in fact on my wish list. 13 sheets of baltic birch when I am hurting for workshop space is a hard pill to swallow though.

edit: your attachment didn't work.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

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I agree with the comments of the OP about horn subs, but my 4 DIY horn subs are tapped horns, which aren't true horns. The're more like a cross between a horn and a transmission line.

Whereas horns are more complicated than sealed or ported, TH are easier to build than true horns, but still more complicated than sealed or ported. They're similar to true horns in many ways, but different in significant ways. The efficiency is better than sealed or ported but less than true horns. Distortion is more like horns than sealed or ported, but the useable bandwidth is more narrow.

To me, the best advantages are cost as DIY, ease of build, relatively small footprint and the ability to spread 4 subs that are flat to 25 Hz around my small space. The difference from one to 2 was amazing. Four are better still. I'll never go back to a single sub.

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I agree with the comments of the OP about horn subs, but my 4 DIY horn subs are tapped horns, which aren't true horns. The're more like a cross between a horn and a transmission line.

Curious as to why nobody ever builds transmission lines for home theater. I've never seen a single one. They're loud as hell in a car, at least for rap song frequencies.

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I used a pair of TL coffins with KEFB139 drivers for years. The bass was tight and natural. The 4 THs are better.

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