Somebody needs to remind me about ethanol next fall

[Pete H]

 

Burning food as fuel being BS is putting it lightly but the real question is..................................how do we collectively stop it?

 

 

A good place to start would be killing off the "Ethanol Lobbyist" who are coddling your states fed. representatives.

 

I think that if the general population were more informed about the truth surrounding ethanol and took the time to research the facts themselves without listening to any of the lobbyist's, that would be a good start, but it's become rather difficult to research certain information because it's become so tainted with slanted views that the "collective" won't ever do that, on ethanol or really any issue.  Then, we get to listen to candidates put in there two cents (most cases without any facts either) and when Trump made the comment a month or so ago (and this isn't political or have anything to do with how I vote but just a completely ignorant comment) that he supports increased production and use of "Ethanol"  and it's good for the country, blah, blah , blah...................I was stating loudly at the time "You fucting idiot". 

 

Thanks!  I fell much better now!

[yamahaSHO]

I love ethanol; the more the better! It's cheap race fuel!  I run E85 in two of my vehicles and store them 5-6 months at a time without any additives and have been doing it for like 6 years. Couple key things for doing that... Don't have a carburetor (or have an ethanol safe one) and keep the system sealed. 

 

Never had a problem with ethanol drying out rubber and I had stock return line, EVAP, and rank in my supercharged 1995 SHO. My STi is mostly stock fuel parts, and my S2000 only has an injector swap (OEM STi injectors at that). Most of the Subaru's I convert are just pump and injector swaps (and tune) a dyno I've yet to see an issue. 

 

Now for my carbed motorcycle, minibike, and lawn mower, I use stabilizer with E10 fuel. 

 

As far as burning food for fuel. What is used for making ethanol was never going to be used as food.

Edited March 31, 2016 by yamahaSHO

[USNRET]

Last pump of Ethanol free here closed last fall. The pump gas is killing marine engines and yard equipment. I had to replace all 5 implements and now use Sta Bil in the ZTR and buy ready mix 2 stroke fuel at Lawn and Irrigation.  Fuel issue maintainence on all of our MoGas (pump gas) aircraft ground support equipment has increased by 20% over the last year; this I know, I do the charts and graphs.

My question for the mech types here; wouldn't running the engine until fuel system dry cause seal, gasket, o-ring dry out issues? On aircraft engines that will be idle longer than 56 days we purge the fuel system with 10 weight oil. Smokes a tad when you light it back off.

Edited March 31, 2016 by USNRET

[jason str]

I was told by a local farmer it takes nearly 2 gallons worth of Ethanol to refine one gallon of Ethanol, plus its far less efficient.

 

Sounds like a waste.

 

Just because its not the same corn type we enjoy on the cob at dinner does not mean its just going to waste, corn is used on many ways but for fuel its a bad inefficient choice period.

Edited April 1, 2016 by jason str

[Seadog]

I use Sta-Bil in my boat fuel (1968 Chris Craft), and I used CD2 before it became impossible to buy several years ago.  The 327 twin engines have un-hardened valve seats and need a lead substitute.  This year, for the first time in the 20 years that I have owned the boat, I had to pull the carbs due to clogging.  I think it is from using the inferior lead substitutes now available.  I wish I would have bought a 30 year supply of the CD2 before it stopped being produced.  I used to buy it at Walmart, then one day it was pulled from the shelves it seems, and nobody had it, not even on the internet.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Seadog

[Mallette]

Does Coleman still sell gasoline for their lanterns?  I know it was originally what we called "white gas" as it had no additives at all.  Expensive, but possibly an answer if you aren't using a lot in a small engine.

 

Dave

[Seadog]

Coleman fuel is still available.  I use four to five gallons per year in my camping gear (stoves, lanterns).  I'm not too sure how well it will work in a small engine - maybe just fine?

[USNRET]

Does Coleman still sell gasoline for their lanterns?  I know it was originally what we called "white gas" as it had no additives at all.  Expensive, but possibly an answer if you aren't using a lot in a small engine.

 

Dave

Low octane with no additives so no lubrication value; IMO, not recommended

Edited April 1, 2016 by USNRET

[Travis In Austin]

Burning food as fuel being BS is putting it lightly but the real question is..................................how do we collectively stop it?

A good place to start would be killing off the "Ethanol Lobbyist" who are coddling your states fed. representatives.

I think that if the general population were more informed about the truth surrounding ethanol and took the time to research the facts themselves without listening to any of the lobbyist's, that would be a good start, but it's become rather difficult to research certain information because it's become so tainted with slanted views that the "collective" won't ever do that, on ethanol or really any issue. Then, we get to listen to candidates put in there two cents (most cases without any facts either) and when Trump made the comment a month or so ago (and this isn't political or have anything to do with how I vote but just a completely ignorant comment) that he supports increased production and use of "Ethanol" and it's good for the country, blah, blah , blah...................I was stating loudly at the time "You fucting idiot".

Thanks! I fell much better now!

You got the idiot part right, but it was a different idiot:

Today, President Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, which will improve vehicle fuel economy and help reduce U.S. dependence on oil.The bill the President signed today responds to the challenge of his bold "Twenty in Ten" initiative, which President Bush announced in January. It represents a major step forward in expanding the production of renewable fuels, reducing our dependence on oil, and confronting global climate change. It will increase our energy security, expand the production of renewable fuels, and make America stronger. . . .

That Act has a ramp up that goes for 4 more years and requires 36 Billion gallons of bio fuels to be consumed annually by 2020.

[JL Sargent]

We use only "ethanol free" fuel in engines other than our daily drivers.

[Travis In Austin]

Does Coleman still sell gasoline for their lanterns? I know it was originally what we called "white gas" as it had no additives at all. Expensive, but possibly an answer if you aren't using a lot in a small engine.

Dave

Low octane with no additives so no lubrication value; IMO, not recommended

Agree with that, about a 50 octane rating, which will obviously result in knocking.

I know that's not good, that results in burned valves? Holed piston?

Edited April 1, 2016 by dwilawyer

[USNRET]

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

[Travis In Austin]

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

I don't know, mine doesn't have pistons?

I had a car once way back when that loved Unocal 93, and that started to disappear and I was on a trip where I could only find 89 or 90, and going up hill, at altitude (normally aspirated) I could hear/feel knocking, backed of and it disappeared. No idea what was happening inside.

In flight training we were taught never to use lower rated gas and this was the reason for the coloring of the gas, red, blue, green, etc., in order to avoid knocking and then they showed us photos of holes burned in the tops of pistons, burnt valves, broken rods. It left an impression.

Edited April 1, 2016 by dwilawyer

[wvu80]

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

 

Death rattle.

 

If you continue to let the engine flutter exactly as you describe, it will blow up like a hand grenade.  Boom!

 

I don't think it would hole the piston, it seems to me a bent valve is what you could expect next because combustion would not quite complete the 4-stroke cycle.

Edited April 1, 2016 by wvu80

[Mallette]

 

 

Does Coleman still sell gasoline for their lanterns? I know it was originally what we called "white gas" as it had no additives at all. Expensive, but possibly an answer if you aren't using a lot in a small engine.

Dave

Low octane with no additives so no lubrication value; IMO, not recommended

Agree with that, about a 50 octane rating, which will obviously result in knocking.

I know that's not good, that results in burned valves? Holed piston?

 

Posted that I didn't really know if applicable.  Back when I was young, American stations "premium" was unleaded and white gas, quite clear.  We bought it for use in Coleman's as it burned cleanly in them, which is why I thought perhaps Coleman fuel was the same. 

 

Dave

[Travis In Austin]

Does Coleman still sell gasoline for their lanterns? I know it was originally what we called "white gas" as it had no additives at all. Expensive, but possibly an answer if you aren't using a lot in a small engine.

Dave

Low octane with no additives so no lubrication value; IMO, not recommended

Agree with that, about a 50 octane rating, which will obviously result in knocking.

I know that's not good, that results in burned valves? Holed piston?

Posted that I didn't really know if applicable. Back when I was young, American stations "premium" was unleaded and white gas, quite clear. We bought it for use in Coleman's as it burned cleanly in them, which is why I thought perhaps Coleman fuel was the same.

Dave

Now that you mention it, I heard people say you could use unleaded gas in a Coleman all the time.

There is another name for Coleman fuel, is it Naptha, something close to that?

[Travis In Austin]

From Coleman, they say it is ok, but unleaded gas doesn't burn as clean, clogs the "generator" tube, but ok to use.

http://coleman.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/61/~/overview-of-difference-between-unleaded-fuel-and-coleman%C2%AE-fuel

Interesting, they say don't use the unleaded gas in Canada, it will eat the tank? What's with gas in Canada?

I wonder why the premium back in the day didn't have lead.

I always thought, based on old movies and TV if you wanted premium you said "fill it with Ethyl", then there would be a dumb joke about ethyl, but that ethyl was leaded?

Edited April 1, 2016 by dwilawyer

[jason str]

Low octane fuel burns fast, high octane fuel burns slow.

 

If low octane fuel is used it will not burn at the proper rate causing your ping.

 

To a certain extent timing can be adjusted to compensate for this issue, newer cars have knock sensors and will retard timing on their own if everything is working properly.

 

Beyond that if pinging still exists you can burn holes in pistons, break pistons, burn the valves or break whatever the weakest link is in the chain.

Edited April 1, 2016 by jason str

[yamahaSHO]

Last pump of Ethanol free here closed last fall. The pump gas is killing marine engines and yard equipment. I had to replace all 5 implements and now use Sta Bil in the ZTR and buy ready mix 2 stroke fuel at Lawn and Irrigation. Fuel issue maintainence on all of our MoGas (pump gas) aircraft ground support equipment has increased by 20% over the last year; this I know, I do the charts and graphs.

My question for the mech types here; wouldn't running the engine until fuel system dry cause seal, gasket, o-ring dry out issues? On aircraft engines that will be idle longer than 56 days we purge the fuel system with 10 weight oil. Smokes a tad when you light it back off.

You're more likely to burn up the pump trying get to get it all out. Stabilizer would be my recommendation. Also, if it's in storage for a long duration, try to find some E0 gas to dilute it with.

I was told by a local farmer it takes nearly 2 gallons worth of Ethanol to refine one gallon of Ethanol, plus its far less efficient.

Sounds like a waste.

Just because its not the same corn type we enjoy on the cob at dinner does not mean its just going to waste, corn is used on many ways but for fuel its a bad inefficient choice period.

The process is getting better and better all the time. Chances are, that farmer has a old school thought and hasn't really put much else thought into it (most of them are clueless about it anyway).

It's been awhile since I've caught up with all the ethanol talk from the many car forums I provide tuning advice, but what is used to make ethanol is essentially waste.

As engines are built to take advantage of these types of fuels (no, your FlexFuel vehicle is not), power and MPG's increase.

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

Pistons rock during normal operation, which is why they are slightly barreled. Audible knock is more like marbles in a coffee can and generally too late for a motor pushing a lot of power.

Low octane fuel burns fast, high octane fuel burns slow.

If low octane fuel is used it will not burn at the proper rate causing your ping.

To a certain extent timing can be adjusted to compensate for this issue, newer cars have knock sensors and will retard timing on their own if everything is working properly.

Beyond that if pinging still exists you can burn holes in pistons, break pistons, burn the valves or break whatever the weakest link is in the chain.

Octane is the fuels resistance to detonation, not the speed at which it burns.

Knock sensors are reactive in the ECU pulling timing. Some cars will be proactive in pulling timing, but only because it's experienced enough knock in a given RPM and load to warrant a problem.

[jason str]

 

Last pump of Ethanol free here closed last fall. The pump gas is killing marine engines and yard equipment. I had to replace all 5 implements and now use Sta Bil in the ZTR and buy ready mix 2 stroke fuel at Lawn and Irrigation. Fuel issue maintainence on all of our MoGas (pump gas) aircraft ground support equipment has increased by 20% over the last year; this I know, I do the charts and graphs.

My question for the mech types here; wouldn't running the engine until fuel system dry cause seal, gasket, o-ring dry out issues? On aircraft engines that will be idle longer than 56 days we purge the fuel system with 10 weight oil. Smokes a tad when you light it back off.

You're more likely to burn up the pump trying get to get it all out. Stabilizer would be my recommendation. Also, if it's in storage for a long duration, try to find some E0 gas to dilute it with.

I was told by a local farmer it takes nearly 2 gallons worth of Ethanol to refine one gallon of Ethanol, plus its far less efficient.

Sounds like a waste.

Just because its not the same corn type we enjoy on the cob at dinner does not mean its just going to waste, corn is used on many ways but for fuel its a bad inefficient choice period.

The process is getting better and better all the time. Chances are, that farmer has a old school thought and hasn't really put much else thought into it (most of them are clueless about it anyway).

It's been awhile since I've caught up with all the ethanol talk from the many car forums I provide tuning advice, but what is used to make ethanol is essentially waste.

As engines are built to take advantage of these types of fuels (no, your FlexFuel vehicle is not), power and MPG's increase.

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

Pistons rock during normal operation, which is why they are slightly barreled. Audible knock is more like marbles in a coffee can and generally too late for a motor pushing a lot of power.

Low octane fuel burns fast, high octane fuel burns slow.

If low octane fuel is used it will not burn at the proper rate causing your ping.

To a certain extent timing can be adjusted to compensate for this issue, newer cars have knock sensors and will retard timing on their own if everything is working properly.

Beyond that if pinging still exists you can burn holes in pistons, break pistons, burn the valves or break whatever the weakest link is in the chain.

Octane is the fuels resistance to detonation, not the speed at which it burns.

Knock sensors are reactive in the ECU pulling timing. Some cars will be proactive in pulling timing, but only because it's experienced enough knock in a given RPM and load to warrant a problem.

 

 

The resistance to detonation has much to do with the rate of witch the fuel burns.

 

Early combustion (fuel burning too quickly) is what causes the pinging we hear with lower octane fuel, this is why retarding the timing helps with the issue to a certain extent.

 

Octane rating also has to do with how much compression the fuel can take before igniting, the higher the octane the less likeliness to ignite under pressure.

Edited April 1, 2016 by jason str