DIY Sub Questions

[CECAA850]

8 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

It's not the glue for the job.  It is so thick that it raises the joints so they are not flush. 

       
I do use clamps in addition to hundreds of pounds of weightlifting weights.  I've made flatpack  kits using Titebond II, Gorilla Glue (polyurethane) and the PL Premium.  Use the less viscous white or yellow woodworkers glue.

 

Please believe me when I say the PL Premium WITH THESE KITS does not work well. 

 

Well, it will work technically, but you'll have to sand and fill on ALL SEAMS.  If you use white or yellow glue, you won't.

I've used pl with flat packs and on my own builds.  Never had an issue.   Ymmv.

[wvu80]

3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

I've used pl with flat packs and on my own builds.  Never had an issue.   Ymmv.

At this point, best to let the viewer make up his own mind.  This vid shows the viscosity of the PL Premium.

 

 

 

You don't have to watch the entire next video.  The results are summarized in the info section.  There are lots of vids on glue, but for us DIY people everything will come back to the glues already discussed.

 

 

[CECAA850]

Looks like I'll start using hot glue.

[wvu80]

23 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Looks like I'll start using hot glue.

I just bet you will. 

 

[jason str]

53 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

It's not the glue for the job.  It is so thick that it raises the joints so they are not flush. 

       
I do use clamps in addition to hundreds of pounds of weightlifting weights.  I've made flatpack  kits using Titebond II, Gorilla Glue (polyurethane) and the PL Premium.  Use the less viscous white or yellow woodworkers glue.

 

Please believe me when I say the PL Premium WITH THESE KITS does not work well. 

 

Well, it will work technically, but you'll have to sand and fill on ALL SEAMS.  If you use white or yellow glue, you won't.

 

Used it on tons of cabinets including pre cut flat packs, never had an issue.

 

Cut the hole on the end smaller so the bead is not so heavy and its a non issue.

[DizRotus]

On February 17, 2017 at 3:17 PM, wvu80 said:

FYI Erich of DIY Soundgroup provides the flat packs to PE

 

That's news to me. but not surprising after sampling some of each.  Erich is a pleasure to deal with.

 

BTW, PL Premium was used on 4 flat packs and one scratch built TH sub.  I won't be using anything else in the future.

 

I've built flat packs using Titebond II with good results, but I'll save it for furniture.  PL, IMO, is better for speakers  if you follow directions and are careful.

 

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

 

That's news to me. but not surprising after sampling some of each.  Erich is a pleasure to deal with.

When I was looking for a sub I emailed Erich because DIYSG was out of stock, and said I wanted to buy my kit from him instead instead of PE.  I wanted to support his efforts at DIYSG.  He wrote me back and said it was fine to order from PE as he supplied the flat packs to them.  

 

He did want to know how well my flat pack from PE was packaged, so when it came in I wrote him back, packaging was impeccable.

 

Had Erich run for president, at least from us DIY'ers who have dealt with him, he would have won unanimously. 

[jason str]

3 hours ago, wvu80 said:

At this point, best to let the viewer make up his own mind.

 

 

You don't have to watch the entire next video.  The results are summarized in the info section.  There are lots of vids on glue, but for us DIY people everything will come back to the glues already discussed.

 

 

 

Testing on plywood tells you very little if the plywood keeps separating, some glues also take a long time to fully cure and reach full strength.

[wvu80]

8 minutes ago, jason str said:

Testing on plywood tells you very little if the plywood keeps separating, some glues also take a long time to fully cure and reach full strength.

Actually that wasn't the video I thought it was.  There is a really good Youtube vid somewhere with some legit strength testing of glue, but it's been a couple of years since I've seen it.  The one I posted was a little lame.

 

As you said before Jason, any of the glues mentioned here will do a good job. 

+++

One thing that did concern me is that @HDBRbuilder said to never use Titebond on an MDF project.  I have a few glue projects under my belt but that doesn't compare to the professional knowledge and experience that HDRB has.

I'm not sure how to take his comments, below.  He is talking about MDF and Titebond (which one?) but then comments on wooden cabs.  Some clarification would help.

 

Quote

 

But I would NEVER use tightbond on an MDF project!  I have personally SEEN WOODEN speaker cabinet assemblies which got trashed, and way more often than NOT, the joint held, but the wood around it came to pieces.  (HDBRbuilder)

 

[HDBRbuilder]

55 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

One thing that did concern me is that @HDBRbuilder said to never use Titebond on an MDF project.  I have a few glue projects under my belt but that doesn't compare to the professional knowledge and experience that HDRB has.

I'm not sure how to take his comments, below.  He is talking about MDF and Titebond (which one?) but then comments on wooden cabs.  Some clarification would help.

Titebond and tightbond II are WOOD glues...MDF IS NOT WOOD...it is FIBERBOARD...basically very fine fiber dust mixed with a bonding agent and hot-pressed into a sheet.  That is why when it gets wet it doesn't just swell up a little, but it, in the words of my Daddy "turns back into the dogcrap and tater peelings it is made from".  Because MDF it is not wood fiber in its natural state, the tightbond WOOD GLUES do not penetrate MDF  enough to create the same kind of joint strength that it would create when penetrating wood.  That is why it is better to use a glue MADE for MDF...but I never use MDF, so it is no big deal to me!  I also seldom use Butt joints in what I build...prefering rabbet and dado joinery...or tongue in groove using WOOD or PLYWOOD...because the more surface there is in a joint for the glue to adhere to, the stronger the joint is when the glue sets up!  A linear butt- joint is the weakest of all joints, unless it is reinforced in some way, such as overlapping butt joinery, or reinforcement of some other kind, such as glue blocks.

 

It is the GLUE that makes the joint hold together...any fasteners used for the process are there PRIMARILY to hold the parts in place while the glue sets up.  For fast production fasteners are used.  If you have the time and ability, you can just use clamps to hold things in place for the glue to set up...and no fasteners are needed at all.

 

We drop-tested speaker cabinets back when I worked at Klipsch...the corner drop always did the MOST damage...BUT...on the old decorator model Heresy and Cornwall,  the damage did not destroy the cabinet to the point of non-functional, because the panels used overlapping butt joinery in the box construction, which reinforced the box without any glue blocks being necessary at the overlapping butt joints themselves.  Glue-block reinforced mitered boxes did OK, but the decorators always won hands-down!

 

The proof is in the pudding!

 

Using wood or plywood, and ensuring the joinery cuts are TIGHT, a rabbet joint will increase the glue surface of the joint by at least 50%...compared to a butt joint...that is a huge increase in joint strength!  A dado joint increases the glue surface by an addition of twice the depth of the dado, and is variable to that dado depth.  A tongue and groove joint is akin to a dado joint.

 

On yet another note:  whenever I am in a home and the owners say with pride that they avoided using formaldehyde-laden materiel in its construction, then I see a pair of MDF speakers...or MDF or plywood boxed cabinets in the kitchen...or...furniture that is MDF based like the dining table which has a table-top that  is  veneered MDF with a solid wood border...well you get the picture...but I just mentally laugh to myself and hold my tongue because they just don't have a clue!

 

There's nothing like throwing up the front loading dock doors on the cabinet shop at Klipsch first thing in the morning after a hot night and having all of that formaldehyde hit you...you eyes burn for a half hour or more!

[ACV92]

Man, this thread is getting sticky.  Couldn't help myself.  After all input, I'm going to stick with good old 'Elmer's Wood Glue.'  See how I did it again there, 'stick.'  Sorry, I'm in a good mood.  It's Friday night, I've got a beer sitting next to me, and soon I'll be listening to some tunes with my shot little SW-10.  It's only 22 years old.  At least it still plays to some minimal degree.

 

As far as the Elmer's goes, I've got plenty of clamps.  I've built sub boxes before with it and never had an issue.  Back when I was more into car audio I remember installers using Elmer's on systems that literally had stop your heart SPL levels.  I asked the question to see if there was something better, and maybe one of the others is.  But water, hard to work with, to thick for joined surfaces, are not what I want to deal with.  If the box I put together blows apart, well I guess I'll have to try again...  

 

So, I've decided to go with the Umax 15 and the NU3000DSP.  I'm going to order them Monday.  I really appreciate everyone's help with this.  It will be a little while before I get it all setup but I will let you know how it goes.  I'm sure I'll have questions regarding the DSP settings.  Stay tuned... 

[wvu80]

3 hours ago, ACV92 said:

Man, this thread is getting sticky. 

Groan...

 

3 hours ago, ACV92 said:

So, I've decided to go with the Umax 15 and the NU3000DSP.  I'm going to order them Monday.

 

I really appreciate everyone's help with this.

Solid. 

 

I am such a believer in the group process.  You may not always get the ultimate setup but it just about guarantees you won't get the worst one.

[ACV92]

wvu80 - Groan?????   That was some solid comedic, albeit lame, process there.  At least in my mind.  Many of the respondents here are far more educated than I.  I'm an older dog trying to learn some new tricks.  Quite frankly, it's awesome that so many are willing to share their knowledge to help ensure that I make an educated decision in the design process.  I've got a long way to go.  Audio to me is the ultimate challenge as far as reproduction and accuracy.  Is there ever a pinnacle to where an audiophile says this is the mountain top??  I think not.  

 

Guys in Japan are having power poles constructed in their yards to ensure an absolutely dedicated power source for their audio systems.  They don't want even a hint of interference on their incoming lines.  I believe it costs around $180,000 to have this done.  Are you that committed?

 

My gear isn't remotely close to many of the Forum poster's setups.  I can only work with what I've got.  Yet, with a Forum such as this I can begin to build something that to me is closer to the 'holy grail' of audio.  So much knowledge so little time.

 

Here's to audio and the tingling sensation of the accurate reproduction of the source component.  May your db's be loud and clear with your neighbors asking what the he** was that.  If they can feel it in the subterranean parts of their homes you've achieved acoustic lineal superiority.  Does that even make sense?  I hope so. 

 

Here's to Klipsch and the sound wave.  An everlasting bond of engineering and audio output.  Talk with you soon.  Thanks to all.  

[ACV92]

The receiver I'm using says that the sub output level/impedance is:  LPF (EFFECT OFF) = 3.5V/1.5k-ohms.  Is that going to be enough of an input signal for a pro amp?

 

I had decided on the NU3000DSP but Amazon has the Crown XLS 1502 for $309.  To run the UMAX 15 should I go with the Crown instead?

 

 

[CECAA850]

3.5 V should be fine.I have 6 pro amps in use at home and all are being driven with consumer lever electronics.

[James Real]

I was thinking of creating a subwoofer system for my Jeep it would be placed in the spare truck wheels area can this be done? As much as possible, it should be a stealth design any idea how to do it?

[ACV92]

1 hour ago, James Real said:

I was thinking of creating a subwoofer system for my Jeep it would be placed in the spare truck wheels area can this be done? As much as possible, it should be a stealth design any idea how to do it?

It's been done plenty of times.  I presume you have an SUV style Jeep and not a CJ.  You can do straight baffle board, baffle board with enclosure in the well, etc.  There are some good videos to help you get an idea of what it involves.  I quickly came across this one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfkpxZtAEA0

[Paducah Home Theater]

On 2/17/2017 at 7:17 PM, HDBRbuilder said:

I also seldom use Butt joints in what I build...prefering rabbet and dado joinery...or tongue in groove

 

Mark Seaton and Jeff at JTR have went even beyond this and now use lock-miter joints.  Apparently the bit to do this on a CNC machine costs about $8,000 and they have to keep one for a spare for when one gets dull, so basically two bits, 16 grand.  I don't fully understand the need for such things in home theater but they are sure proud of it.  

[CECAA850]

12 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 

Mark Seaton and Jeff at JTR have went even beyond this and now use lock-miter joints.  Apparently the bit to do this on a CNC machine costs about $8,000 and they have to keep one for a spare for when one gets dull, so basically two bits, 16 grand.  I don't fully understand the need for such things in home theater but they are sure proud of it.  

That's it, I'm dove tailing my next build.

[HDBRbuilder]

4 hours ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 

Mark Seaton and Jeff at JTR have went even beyond this and now use lock-miter joints.  Apparently the bit to do this on a CNC machine costs about $8,000 and they have to keep one for a spare for when one gets dull, so basically two bits, 16 grand.  I don't fully understand the need for such things in home theater but they are sure proud of it.

That's way out of my cost range...but MOST "lock-miter" joints have two bits involved, one for one side and the other for its mating surface...I guess it depends on the type of "lock miter" joint they are making.  I worked around a CNC machine which actually measured its bits after passes, changed them out, when they were dull, re-sharpened the bit that was dull, mic-ed the re-sharpened bit and stored it in a place just for that size, so that it could be re-used as needed.  Now that is some COOL stuff there!