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mea2112

Why Would Heresy I's Overload My Amp?

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I have a very nice Rotel RA-1412 integrated amp that I hooked up my 1979 Heresy's to. The amp has an overload circuit that protects it from various things like high dc offset, speaker wires touching, etc. If any of those things occur a red light comes on and the amp shuts down.

The bottom line is with the Heresy's connected the amp goes into overload every time, sometimes immediately and sometimes within 15-45 minutes. The dc offset is spot on and the speaker connections are fine. If I disconnect the speakers the amp is fine and never overloads even after many hours.

Assuming the Heresy's are 8 ohm what could be the problem with using the Heresy's with this particular amp?

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You don't say whether you tried another speaker. I'm assuming the overload protection is for individual speaker outputs and not global.

 

Also, is it the same channel that goes into protection? If so, try swapping the speakers left for right and see if the problem follows the speaker.

 

Trying another speaker, and the swap test, will tell you whether it's the Hereseys or your amp.

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Yes, look closely at the terminal connections on inside of the cabinet and the internal wiring connected to them.  Some wiring connections could be loose and creating a short, or as stated old and corroded.

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I have had this problem in the past with frayed speaker wire: a short in the line kept causing my amp to cut out.  When I replaced the wire the problem went away.  I would definitely check all connections very carefully as that seems a more likely culprit than the speakers.

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High capacitance in the speaker wire can make some amps oscillate. My old Onkyo integrated will shut down when I use high capacitance wires. 

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First of all, thanks to everyone for the help! 

 

5 hours ago, Peter P. said:

You don't say whether you tried another speaker. I'm assuming the overload protection is for individual speaker outputs and not global.

 

Also, is it the same channel that goes into protection? If so, try swapping the speakers left for right and see if the problem follows the speaker.

 

Trying another speaker, and the swap test, will tell you whether it's the Hereseys or your amp.

 

I should have tried a different set of speakers before I started this thread but I will be doing that tonight or tomorrow.

The overload protection doesn't tell you what channel the problem is with unfortunately, but it works with any of the speaker outputs.

 

4 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

I've actually had really old speaker wire cause that, replaced the speaker wire and I was fine. 

 

The speaker wire is new so it should be fine.

 

4 hours ago, shiva said:

Yes, look closely at the terminal connections on inside of the cabinet and the internal wiring connected to them.  Some wiring connections could be loose and creating a short, or as stated old and corroded.

 

Never thought of the internal connections. I may have to do that.

 

4 hours ago, rebuy said:

Do you have any other speakers to test with?

 

Yep. Gonna try that. Should have done that first.

 

4 hours ago, KenazFilan said:

I have had this problem in the past with frayed speaker wire: a short in the line kept causing my amp to cut out.  When I replaced the wire the problem went away.  I would definitely check all connections very carefully as that seems a more likely culprit than the speakers.

 

I think I'll just go ahead and use different wire when I connect different speakers.

 

4 hours ago, Toz said:

High capacitance in the speaker wire can make some amps oscillate. My old Onkyo integrated will shut down when I use high capacitance wires. 

 

Thanks. I'm gonna try new wire with different speakers. 

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The Heresy I has a "nominal" impedance of 8 ohms, but it actually is higher (which is good!).

The lowest impedance value is 10.2 ohms at about 135-140Hz, so it is very easy to drive.

You should be looking for a short circuit...

- check the connections to the outputs on the back of the amp to ensure no stray stands of speaker wire are contacting the chassis

- check same at the connections to the speakers

- Unscrew the speaker backs and check inside for loose wires, retighten the terminal strip screws, look around in there

(the inside of the backs have a connection from the crossovers to the back terminals... be carefull when you pull of the backs and check the connections on both sides of the back piece where the connections go through from inside to outside...)

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How are your ends terminated?  Bare wire, banana plugs, etc?  I am suspicious of the speaker wire.  I had banana plugs cause this problem once because of the way they "sagged" and eventually touched. I used a small piece of rubber between them to solve that problem.

 

I suggest you make your changes one at a time. 

 

You might test your amp with one speaker at a time.  If you have success on the L with the Left Speaker then move the same speaker to the R, using the same wire.  Rinse and repeat for the Right Speaker and wire.

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Easy loudspeaker to drive - sounds like an amplifier problem. 

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So has this right at 40 year old integrated amp ever been gone through?  Is it running on original 40 year old capacitors and not ever been touched?  If so, it's running on borrowed time.  Nice amplifier but they age the same way any others did from the 70's.  

 

Do you have a "newer" or different amp to try?

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On 2/20/2017 at 1:52 PM, avguytx said:

So has this right at 40 year old integrated amp ever been gone through?  Is it running on original 40 year old capacitors and not ever been touched?  If so, it's running on borrowed time.  Nice amplifier but they age the same way any others did from the 70's.  

 

Do you have a "newer" or different amp to try?

Unless the speakers are shorted, I'd have to go with this.

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Thanks a lot for the replies. I really appreciate the feedback!

 

I disconnected the Heresy's and the amp runs fine without any speakers connected and does not go into overload, even after a couple of hours. So, the amp doesn't seem to be the problem.

Also, opened up both Heresy cabinets and checked all wires and connections.

Everything looks fine.  

 

On Sun Feb 19 2017 at 4:33 AM, pauln said:

The Heresy I has a "nominal" impedance of 8 ohms, but it actually is higher (which is good!).

The lowest impedance value is 10.2 ohms at about 135-140Hz, so it is very easy to drive.

You should be looking for a short circuit...

- check the connections to the outputs on the back of the amp to ensure no stray stands of speaker wire are contacting the chassis

- check same at the connections to the speakers

- Unscrew the speaker backs and check inside for loose wires, retighten the terminal strip screws, look around in there

(the inside of the backs have a connection from the crossovers to the back terminals... be carefull when you pull of the backs and check the connections on both sides of the back piece where the connections go through from inside to outside...)

 

Checked all of the above and everything looks good.

 

On Mon Feb 20 2017 at 8:41 AM, catman0122 said:

I've had brand new speaker wire cause this.

 

I'm using new Monster Cable and I think all my wire is Monster. Time to upgrade I think! 

 

On Mon Feb 20 2017 at 9:09 AM, wvu80 said:

How are your ends terminated?  Bare wire, banana plugs, etc?  I am suspicious of the speaker wire.  I had banana plugs cause this problem once because of the way they "sagged" and eventually touched. I used a small piece of rubber between them to solve that problem.

 

I suggest you make your changes one at a time. 

 

You might test your amp with one speaker at a time.  If you have success on the L with the Left Speaker then move the same speaker to the R, using the same wire.  Rinse and repeat for the Right Speaker and wire.

 

I was using Monster Cable flex pins for the speaker cable ends. Probably not the greatest idea. Just gonna try bare wire and leave it at that.

Good idea on making changes one at a time.

 

On Mon Feb 20 2017 at 9:40 AM, Deang said:

Easy loudspeaker to drive - sounds like an amplifier problem. 

 

On Mon Feb 20 2017 at 2:52 PM, avguytx said:

So has this right at 40 year old integrated amp ever been gone through?  Is it running on original 40 year old capacitors and not ever been touched?  If so, it's running on borrowed time.  Nice amplifier but they age the same way any others did from the 70's.  

 

Do you have a "newer" or different amp to try?

 

I recently had the amp serviced and it was gone through pretty extensively.

 

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5 minutes ago, mea2112 said:

I was using Monster Cable flex pins for the speaker cable ends. Probably not the greatest idea.

 

Just gonna try bare wire and leave it at that.

Good idea on making changes one at a time.

Interesting, I had not see those before. 

 

I agree with your idea of trying bare wire and bypassing the flex pins for now.  It will eliminate one variable.

 

41EX253KQQL.jpg

 

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So you've tried another pair of speakers? They may not be as efficient but it's worth a try. 

 

What about tinsel leads on the woofers...they aren't touching are they? I guess you could disconnect one driver at a time and isolate which one is causing it to go into protect. 

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Try this:

1. Disconnect left speaker at amp, fire up right speaker and see if overload circuit (OLC) is triggered. If not triggered, go to step 2. If triggered, go to step 1a.

2. Disconnect right speaker at amp, reconnect left speaker at amp. Fire up and check OLC. If not triggered, see ** below. If triggered, go to step 2a.

  1a. Disconnect right speaker at amp, move it over and connect to left speaker terminal at amp. Fire up and check OLC. If triggered, follow step 1b. If not triggered, something's wrong with the right channel amp .To confirm, disconnect left amp channel, hook up your left channel speaker to the right channel on the amp. OLC should trigger.

  1b. Swap speakers at speaker terminal ends and fire up. If triggered, follow step 1c. If not triggered, speaker is bad.

  1c. Slave in new speaker wire, or swap speaker wires at both terminal ends (amp and speaker). Fire it up. If OLC is still triggered, see ** below. But if it's not triggered, the speaker wire is bad. 

  2a. Disconnect left speaker at amp, move it over and connect to right speaker terminal at amp. Fire up and check OLC. If triggered, follow step 2b. If not triggered, something's wrong with the left channel amp .To confirm, disconnect right amp channel, hook up your right channel speaker to the left channel on the amp. OLC should trigger.

  2b. Swap speakers at speaker terminal ends and fire up. If triggered, follow step 2c. If not triggered, speaker is bad.

  2c. Slave in new speaker wire, or swap speaker wires at both terminal ends (amp and speaker). Fire it up. If OLC is still triggered, see ** below. But if it's not triggered, the speaker wire is bad. 

** Something's wrong with the amp.

 

Hope this helps you isolate the issue.

 

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Start simple and work towards difficult.  Trouble-shooting guides always do it this way:  try another pair of speakers using same wire/connectors.  Problem solved if they do the same thing...it is the wire/connectors on the wire.  If they work fine, then it is something about the first speakers...so start checking connections working from the terminals on the back, to the connections TO the crossover network, then the connections FROM the crossover network to the drivers...it would be BETTER to work back in the other direction, except that doing it from the terminals enroute to the drivers is EASIER.  Check the connections and make sure they are good..tight...and if any of them are soldered, ensure they are not cracked or broken.

 

I would BET that it is either the connection from terminal to crossover network...each end...or the crossover to the drivers...BUT it could be in the crossover itself.  The crossover will most likely need to be removed to actually give it a good visual check-out....unless you have room enough to do that without removing it/them.

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