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kink56

Belle Review

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yes, ? ? ? 

 

I do not play very loud at all.  But I cannot give you a measurement.  I would guess around 90dB. 

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Have you checked polarity/phasing? All components in the current crossovers wired the right way? If this has been asked and answered and I missed it, please forgive me.

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15 minutes ago, kink56 said:

Elementary my dear Watson. 

Was sure you had, but didn't recall seeing it confirmed with a question. I have run across it in my own pre-loved gear when checking with a tester app ...

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When I got my Forte Is, which were stock, they sounded weird to me.  Upon taking the mid and tweeter horns out I discovered the wires to one of the midrange horns were swapped. Bob Crites said that it happens that way from the factory from time to time. So one driver, in one speaker was OOP probably since new. 

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90 db is pretty loud btw, you are probably less than that. At the end of the day the xovers are what is gonna have the most effect on sound...

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If you have never had horn loaded bass cabinets such as Belle, La Scala, KHorn, Jubillee, but only heard the bass from direct radiators, there is a distinct difference. The horn bass will be much smoother sounding, with much less distortion. This could cause you to turn up the gain, to the point of having the mids/tweets be way too loud.

 

Just a thought... the cost to turn it down is free, as is the suggestion. ;)

 

Bruce

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On 3/22/2018 at 3:31 PM, kink56 said:

 ...  the Dynaco makes these speakers MUCH better. ...

 

My old tube Dynaco Mark IVs (two-40 wt RMS power amps, 1964) sounded great!  Warm, forgiving, effortless with my JBLs. 

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On 3/22/2018 at 6:30 PM, kink56 said:

yes, ? ? ? 

 

I do not play very loud at all.  But I cannot give you a measurement.  I would guess around 90dB. 

 

I will now show my ignorance.  This is really stretching it, really grasping at straws, but, according to the Klipsch/Keele chart (DfH, 1/1977), which takes room size into account, a stock Belle needs only 0.2 watts to produce 90 dB in a 3,000 cu.ft. room.  At very low power, some solid state amps produce increased distortion.  I am not familiar with the amps you listed in your original post, but are they solid state?  Could that be why the Dynaco sounds so much better on your Belle?  The Forte I would need about 0.7 watts, 3.5 times the power.  Would that move any of your amps out of the objectionable distortion range?

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5 hours ago, garyrc said:

At very low power, some solid state amps produce increased distortion ...

An old forum member, @leok, an engineer, claimed that the majority of solid states amps had the highest distortion levels at low power. He had a very short list of solid state amps he approved of. I believe he used SET and Hypex in his systems.

 

 

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Yeah, probably a lot less than 90dB. I would think 90dB would be the loudest I ever listen, and that is rarely. 

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Quote

 

I got the PrimaLuna power amp. It is very good!   I took the Xiang Sheng preamp out and put in my Spectral DMC-15.  This is the ONE thing that made the most difference in reducing that bothersome resonance so far.  All my other preamps, Crown, Theshold and the Xiang Sheng had it to various degrees.  The Dynaco amp and the PrimaLuna amp reduced to a little degree, but the Spectral preamp did it the most.    Everything matters, that's for sure! 

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For not allot of cash I would recommend picking up a used DAC. I always like Burr Brown chips. One box Redbook jitter is magnified in a way with Heritage.

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Everything matters indeed - @kink56 - seems like you are making progresss - which obviously is what one wants to happen after having spent a considerable amount of cash. Many people have already written about the revealing character of the Heritage lineup - but what I cannot understand is how a different preamp should cure those resonances you were writing about - wouldn't they be rather speakers (i.e. box ) related? Please understand that my remark is in no way meant to be disrespectful - I am just wondering. But again: what matters most is that YOU get the sound you are looking for - so best of luck.

Another (probably silly) idea: you have been using a sub all the time - (same here btw.) - so you are experienced in setting those up, but perhaps you can finetune those settings just one more time?

 

And just one final comment - with my Khorns I have found that tube amplification is one way to go, but there are alternatives - both for pre- and poweramps.

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Guest wdecho

Klipsch and the better horn speakers with high efficiency are very unforgiving and will show any fault of any part in the chain of reproduction. For this reason studios of old used big horns for listening. They would show any musician off key immediately. Studios have gone to smaller monitors these days probably more to do with size than reproduction. 

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Did not cure, but some preamps make it worse, or better.   It is a matter of degree.  Some are so bad I can hear it two rooms away playing at moderate levels. Some are "good enough" to at least enjoy the music without getting nauseous. 

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9 minutes ago, kink56 said:

Some are "good enough" to at least enjoy the music without getting hearing damage. 

^this...

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The Spectral is phenomenal.  The timbre and the soundstage the best I ever heard.  There is still that resonance but it is greatly reduced.  It may be because of speed, or maybe it is just a matter of perfect impendence matching?   Oh, and ANY of my amp combinations have too much gain. What is nice about the Crown power amps I can turn DOWN the gain.   What is nice about tube amps I can use different tubes.   The primary gain tubes on the Prima Luna are 12AX7s. The secondary, just before the power tubes are 12AU7.    I replaced the 12AX7 with 12AT7 and that helped lower the gain a little. Then I tried 12AU7 in the 12AX7 place, so that I had all 12AU7. That lowered the gain some more and it improved the sound overall.   I did not want to run it with tube types not recommended (they say if you want to lower the gain go 5751 which I do not have).    So, is there any long term problem running the sweet sounding 12AU7 in place of the 12AX7?    I do not want to lower the gain in a preamp, I want it to happen at the power amp. 

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I'm pretty sure his are the ones listed on the auction site right now.  Still makes me happy that I built a pair.  ;)

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