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Vivek Batra

Denon 4500H with RF 7 III or Forte III

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Hi Guys

 

This month I invested in Denon 4500H and RP 8000 F with R-115SW. I am ok with the sub but the speakers I am not very happy with. They do not sound to me very well powered or lack something in I can't fully explain being a novice, I am planning to return the 8000F and go for RF 7 III or Forte III. So my questions are as below

 

1. Will Denon 4500h with 125W/channel will be enough to drive RF 7 III/ Forte III in 2 channel mode?

2. How big is the quality difference between RP 8000 F and RF 7 III/Forte III as the price is almost 2.5 times 

 

Thanks for your help.

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The only thing I can answer to is the first question. Yes, 125 wpc will be more than adequate. Having extra watts will not hurt you but at that output level coupled with their high sensitivity you will be more than ok. What you need to decide at this point is what you are looking for in a speaker. The rf7s will be a tad more refined and cleaner sounding where as the fortes will have a bit more presence in the mid to upper frequencies. The forte iiis may have been tamed a bit from the 2s I have heard, but i would expect that the overall feeling they give off at volume will still be there.

 

Personally I have decided that I am more in the heritage and presence at volume camp but it all comes down to personal preference. 

 

Good luck!

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@jackrcox Thanks for shedding some more light. I have not auditioned either RF 7 or Forte, I'll try to audition both if I could at my local store.

Edited by Vivek Batra

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If they do not sound right you either have your connections wrong

or you AVR setting are wrong.

This is a very nice speaker that really should deliver good sound.

Sometimes when setting up a new system you make an error.

Go back through and recheck everything,  Get it right and it'll be great.

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No reason to return the speakers until you're sure you

have everything properly connected or you'll have

the same problems with a new pair of speakers.

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Check the polarity of the speakers (+ on the amp to + on the speaker, - on the amp to - on the speaker).

 

The Denon is 125 watts per channel only if you are running just 2 channels.  With more channels running, it is less per channel.  It is in the fine print in the specs.  This is a common AVR company fudge.  Denon is not the only one.  Almost all of them do it, but sometimes not for their spaarate power amps.  Even so, the Denon is probably powerful enough on a wattage basis. 

 

There were rumors of a hard to drive impedance problem with the old RF 7, I think.  Maybe somebody else can address this. 

 

I've heard great things about the Forte III from everybody except one individual who thought it was too bright.

 

I suggest reading the Denon Manual all the way through.

 

For Audyssey, other than "Ask Audyssey" (now on Facebook?), I only know of two authoritative sources, and they are both excellent.  Here they are:

 

"Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

 

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Hi All 

 

Thanks for your inputs. As far as polarity is concerned, that seems to be right both on speakers and the amp side. What I am missing in the sound is depth. I am not sure if I can express what I am expecting from the RP- 8000F. Otherwise they are sound clear at all volume level. But they sound more very flat to me. I ran the auddessy as well and the towers are set to "small" and the LFE mode is set to LFE only crossover at 80 hz. Dynamic EQ is on Dynamic Volume is Off still at -30 or -20 db they do not seem to be loud enough or immersive enough. May be I am over expecting?

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@glens I think that would not be a good setting. As I have sub woofer as well. Then the LFE signals to not be fully pushed to the sub but divided between L/R and sub?

Edited by Vivek Batra

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I fetched the manual and "thumbed" through it over lunch.  It's the combination I'd try based on what I saw.

 

"Small" mains is for when they can't go low.

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Hello Vivek,

I have a Denon AVR4300H - same model as yours but a little older (1 or 2 years) - and have RP8060FA's connected as fronts.

The RP8060FA is a RP8000 but with an Atmos module build in.

 

My experience is exactly the same as yours, the speakers sound flat, lifeless and lack bass (you use a subwoofer so you might not notice the lack of bass so hard).

After connecting an external amplifier the speakers came to life. That external amplifier has a smaller (but similar) power specification at 8 Ohms compared to the Denon but can power speakers with impedances down to 2,7 Ohm. (the amplifier is a XTZ Edge A2-300 - class D ICEpower).

 

I cannot find impedance charts for the new RP8000/8060FA yet but the older model RP280 had impedance dips to 3,1 Ohms.

(see attached graph - source: https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rp-280fa-tower-speaker-reviewed/?page=2)

I suspect that the Denon is not capable to power a RP8000/RP8060 properly because of the impedance dips of the speakers i.e. there is sufficient power for 8 ohms but the amplifier cannot generate enough current when the impedance drops. 

 

Although I like the Denon for all its functionality, the audio part seems to be lacking. 

 

Also, my Denon amplifier runs so hot (on the 8Ohm setting) that the video convertor occasionally stops working. After changing the impedance setting in the Denon from 8 to 4 Ohms the amplifier runs much cooler and without video convertor problems, but it did not change the sound of the audio 

 

I would suggest that you borrow a few amplifiers from friends or willing shops and evaluate the RP8000 with those before changing your speakers. The sound quality difference was immediately obvious in my case.

 

Jef

 

 

 

Klipsch-RP-280FA-imp-thumb-650xauto-14537.jpg

Edited by JefDC
grammar
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Turn off Audyssey, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic volume, everything such as that that you possibly can.  Go into your setup menus and disable all of it.  I personally dislike all of the processing that moderns AVRs do.  The reason your speakers sound flat is that Audyssey is trying to make them sound that way.  Klipsch are lively, dynamic speakers and many sound processing programs neuter that sound and take away all the benefits of a Klipsch speaker.

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@wuzzzer I will give it a try as well. But most of the people favour audyssey.

 

Edited by Vivek Batra

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These exact same thoughts occurred to me last night. I have had equipment and internal settings in my systems kill the fun out of what otherwise are great speakers. I had an onkyo reciever for awhile that was the most lifeless and dull piece of equipment that absolutely took the air out of both a nice set of kef and klipsch speakers. I have had great onkyos before and I thought nothing of it until swapping it out and the sound opened up tremendously.

 

You might see if there is a setting on there that you enjoy that isnt so neutered with music and then switch back for av. Personally, after that, I would echo trying different equipment before taking the speakers back(a pain, I know).

 

Aside, I have purchased speakers before which I had different expectations from what the speakers actually provided me. Not saying that the 8000s are flat as I havent had experience with them, but demoing is a must for me now so I dont go through buyers remorse(as bad, haha!) again. 

 

 

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Audyssey improves the sound of my Klipschorns and my Belle Klipsch, increasing smoothness and clarity.

 

Audyssey takes time and care to set up properly.

 

Speakers, rooms, room treatments, other components, taste and moods vary significantly -- Audyssey may do better with some combinations than with others.

 

I don't like the DEQ option.  In my system, it seems to reduce clarity, and obscures some detail.  Fortunately, I don't need it, because it is to compensate for the bass (and, more subtly, treble) falling off at low volumes.   I play movies within about 7 dB of Reference, so there is very little roll-off, and I put the bass back by other means.   Unfortunately, on some AVRs, DEQ is the default position.  Try turning it off.  All of Audyssey's room and speaker correction will remain, unaffected.  When DEQ is off,  the tone control function should be available.  Setting the bass control to + 6 will provide about the same bass boost as DEQ would have, if you normally play your system at about -15 dB on the main volume control, without the loss of clarity.  

 

The typical user misses the bass peaks Audyssey removes, so they turn their sub up about 3 to 5 dB AFTER running Audyssey.   After doing that, one has a smooth bass elevation, instead of the jagged one room modes might have provided.  This is a "season to taste" matter.  To see how to do this without causing problems, see Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

 

By using Audyssey, you can get a fairly smooth (rather than kinky) curve, and then tilt it as you please, after calibration.  Don't use a "base (not bass) copy" function, though.  It destroys the subtle Audyssey compensation over hundreds of points.  Modify your curve by adjusting the sub and the bass control (if available).

 

Harman and other research indicates most people prefer a curve like this:

image.png.b991c3500fdcedd636d0e3926aedb442.png

Or this:

image.png.c0ffeb9289fcd841e1a70130b9f15322.png

 I prefer to leave the treble alone (not turn it down), but impose some bass boost.

 

One reason this might be called for is because most commercial recordings have some of the bass attenuated.  See Chris A's posts on "de-mastering," starting with "The Missing Octave."

 

As for Large v.s. Small, and LFE + Main:

  • Go ahead and try that combination, but it is not likely to work very well, due to phase cancellation, comb filtering, etc.  To get both the main speakers to work in the deep bass range AND the sub to work at the same time, you do need both Large AND LFE + Main.  Most experts recommend "small" for all speakers, while letting the sub do the heavy lifting, regardless of how "large" the main speakers are..  "Small" and "Large" are misnomers.
  • I abandoned the above combination after trying it v.s. "Small" for about one year.  Even though I was lucky to get very little phase cancellation with "Large" and LFE + Main, "Small" provided greater clarity, and smoother bass, and, as you know, Klipschorns are hardly small!  A friend of mine uses "small" on his Bozak Concert Grand very large speakers.

Your speakers might have a little more punch if placed well into a room corner (3 to 6 dB more bass).  If you do that, though, don't block any ports, and put some absorbing material on the walls on either side of the speakers, starting where a yardstick placed flat against the mid/tweeter horn would just touch the side walls, and extending two feet out into the room from there.

image.png.2a2cd93ee81c792cbf2e5f88171040f6.png

 

 

Once again,

"Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

 

Good Luck, and welcome to the forum!

 

 

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@garyrc Thanks for your very detailed and informative reply. I am still a toddler to understand this in whole :) . But still it adds to the topic. I tried to turn off the Audyssey completely as I can say I lost some of the characteristics. So I am better off with Audyssey On DEQ on with 5 db and DV to Off.

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3 hours ago, Vivek Batra said:

@garyrc Thanks for your very detailed and informative reply. I am still a toddler to understand this in whole :) . But still it adds to the topic. I tried to turn off the Audyssey completely as I can say I lost some of the characteristics. So I am better off with Audyssey On DEQ on with 5 db and DV to Off.

 

 

Vivek Batra

 

  @MetropolisOutfitters or @Cory Harrison is who you need to talk with. Not only can he answer your questions on which speaker is better between RF-7III and Forte'III, and questions about your AVR settings, he can also save you more money on the purchases you are interested in  @dtel's wife please fix my post so Cory sees it  :D

 

Personally Vivek, I would also recommend an outboard amp as well. As previously stated, receivers are notoriously underpowered and yours will only push 125 watts per channel in the two channel Stereo mode, this is way less in surround sound on the front three channels with all channels driven. Cory can guide you in making great choices without breaking your bank in this aspect as well.

 

Roger

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