KMHA Class by Chief Bone Head Oct. 18 & 19 (

[Edgar]

13 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

If someone performs a modification and likes it then great for them but don’t be disappointed if Roy or others don’t see it as an upgrade to a Klipsch Design.

 

I think of Klipsch much like I think of Harley Davidson. You can keep your Harley stock and nobody will fault you for it. You can add genuine Harley Davidson Screamin' Eagle parts and people will congratulate you for it. You can modify your Harley in the most outrageous ways, but as long as it still has a V-twin under the tank, to the faithful it will still be a Harley.

[Chief bonehead]

7 hours ago, Deang said:

These discussions are always interesting, but I don't see how any of the information is applicable when all you are doing is pulling and replacing three end-of-life capacitors and a couple of coils. "Upgrade", "modification" - who cares. How about, "better than it was". I've also posted ESR measurements of the old parts ad nauseum. Getting criticized for doing this kind of work just seems silly.    

 

When Roy gave us the schematic for the Jubilee passive, he placed no restrictions on parts choice except the DCR numbers for the coils. His position on capacitors at that point in time was that they supplied "the salt and pepper". So, what has changed?  

 

Independent measurements of current product consistently shows exaggerated HF response. While most really enjoy the dynamics of horns, not everyone likes having their ears pinned back, especially at the SPL levels many around here seem to enjoy. A change to a filter is obviously a modification. Whether or not it's an "upgrade" is up to the end user to decide.

Deano deano.....someday. 

[HDBRbuilder]

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

I think of Klipsch much like I think of Harley Davidson. You can keep your Harley stock and nobody will fault you for it. You can add genuine Harley Davidson Screamin' Eagle parts and people will congratulate you for it. You can modify your Harley in the most outrageous ways, but as long as it still has a V-twin under the tank, to the faithful it will still be a Harley.

That's why I ride a 1983 BMW R100RT....I don't care if people congratulate me or not...I just like to get to where I am going...and get back home again...like has been happening ever since I bought it ever so slightly used in 1992!  Besides, it is just one of 250 60th anniversary editions shipped to North America (the only place they were shipped to!)...kinda fun to watch it go up in value each and every year, since 1992! If you're from Arkansas you might just recognize it as a "Danny's Special"...meaning it was out-fitted with every popular assessory option of its time by Danny, the dealer in  Fort Smith, AR...prior to it even hitting the showroom floor!  I added the Simmons Seat after purchase...no butt burn for me!...even on 1000+ mile days in 100 degree heat!😉

 

As for modifications of Klipsch speakers, to each his/her own...but I prefer if at all possible to keep mine "as stock as possible", because that is how they left the factory.  If I decide to build something, I just put whatever I think will sound best into it, because I no longer work for Klipsch, and some of what I would really love to use is not being offered for the DIY folks who could opt for it, instead of being forced into making purchases elsewhere to meet their "parts needs"...I really believe that this is a situation that Klipsch should consider rectifying, myself.  Even in the old days, DIY builders' needs were met by the company.  OTOH, I ALSO TOTALLY UNDERSTAND the company's reluctance to do it!  It is a catch-22 for many of the DIY folks though...especially if they are NOT INTENDING TO SELL what they build!  Me?  I am now on fixed income(s)...but I would be very interested in getting a few things for what I intend to build for myself...especially some of the tractrix horn and port stuff!...if it was somehow made available to the DIY crowd. I would rather build a TRUE clone than have to cut corners using stuff from elsewhere....or having to reverse-engineer from "the real deals" picked up here and there....somehow.  I have the skills necessary to replicate almost anything...but why should I have to go thru all of that hassle?  Just saying...

[Travis In Austin]

On 10/30/2019 at 11:31 AM, Edgar said:

In addition, the design has to accommodate production tolerances and variations in individual components (including drivers). The absolute best results are obtained when the basic design is augmented with case-by-case fine-tuning of the crossover components. 

The answer, Museum Editions, hand matched networks and drivers by Chief Bonehead.

 

I enjoyed hearing Bonehead talk about how they break in woofers, mids and tweeters to be able to test apples to apples and oranges to oranges. How he even tells manufacturers what they need to do to samples before sending, etc.

 

 

[Chris A]

I've found that compression drivers need breaking in just as much as cone-type woofers, etc.  I actually saw the time alignment of a BMS 4592ND, a dual-diaphragm ring radiator driver, change its relative time alignment between diaphragms rather significantly within the first 10-20 hours of use at home hi-fi levels.  I was astounded how much the performance changed with that driver and other compression drivers in the first few hours of operation.

 

Woofers have a good excuse for their break-in performance changes: the large cone surround and spider have to loosen up...and it takes significant operating time to do that (10s of hours of operation in my experience at mid-70s to mid-90s dBSPL listening levels)--unless you drive them with a break-in signal to loosen them up more quickly. 

 

Chris

[Deang]

13 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I think anyone who would go through the class Roy presented would very likely  understand why Roy’s position is if it’s not a Klipsch designed network it’s not an upgrade but a modification. If someone performs a modification and likes it then great for them but don’t be disappointed if Roy or others don’t see it as an upgrade to a Klipsch Design.

 

Who's disappointed?

 

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[Deang]

I've always loved the old AK/AL series of networks that look like they were soldered using a blowtorch.

 

People are conflating issues.

 

I rarely if ever touch the newer stuff. The only exception is the original RF-7 and a couple of RF-7ii.

 

Now that Al guy is completely out of control, and I wish someone would do something about that. 

 

 

[Deang]

16 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Deano deano.....someday. 

 

lol. Yeah, it would be fun. The social stuff is hard on me though, a lot of back problems and I'm miserable most of the time. 

 

The class sounded cool, but I wouldn't have been able to sit that long, and you would have been really distracted with the paper wads coming your way. 🙂

 

After that exchange on Facebook I did a couple of things: I removed the Klipsch name from my page, and decided I would quit using the word "upgrade" - but to be honest, it's not really a word I ever used much. 

[Edgar]

In my current speaker-building project I am right now at the stage where I'm building the crossover network.

 

I can say without reservation that soldering-up resistors, capacitors, and inductors in a pain in the posterior.

[Dave A]

Hey Edgar remember insufficient heat from your soldering iron will cause more problems than one that gets to hot. A good one flows solder quickly and you get on and get off quickly.

[Edgar]

9 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Hey Edgar remember insufficient heat from your soldering iron will cause more problems than one that gets to hot. A good one flows solder quickly and you get on and get off quickly.

 

Thanks, but the iron is not the problem. The problem is the guy holding-onto the iron.

 

I always find that I need at least one more hand than I have.

[JohnA]

22 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

.....

 

After all the classes when everyone was asked what they learned at the Chief bonehead class the largest majority expressed a new awareness of how important and complex is the designing of the balancing networks are for the Klipsch Sound that Roy designs the Heritage for.

 

I .......

 

miketn

 

 

Several years agoI decided I just HAD to mate a Peavey FH-1 and a 511b/902-8G.  The 902 needed eq and the FH-1 had an annoying return in output above about 1k.  I spent weeks on that network, playing with -3 dB points and trial and error adjustments to the high-pass values to get a smooth response at the crossover.  Ended up with +1 dB at 1k predicted and +2 dB tested at the crossover point.  But I got about an 18 dB slope (with 2 elements) and the eq I needed on that high-pass.  It gave me a strong appreciation of The Chief's work. 

 

You could hear the +2 dB if you listened for it.  😞  We used them for some coffeehouses at church.  Female voices were excellent and we got a few praises from the audience.  🙂