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Ziggurat

Xilica up and running!

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Glad it goes well with your setup.

Will follow the developments.

I am very interested how are powerful Crowns doing with HF driver in K402s. What were the reasons to abandon audiophile amps instead of pro amps?

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On 9/22/2019 at 12:07 AM, parlophone1 said:

Glad it goes well with your setup.

Will follow the developments.

I am very interested how are powerful Crowns doing with HF driver in K402s. What were the reasons to abandon audiophile amps instead of pro amps?

The Macro Tech is doing a phenomenal job with the K402s. Open, super clear, precise imaging, freakish dynamics and utterly engaging.

 

When I swap it out for the Primaluna (which I had expected to be far better), I am immediately disappointed.  It sounds like a toy by comparison.  This is very interesting. I have had friends borrow the Primaluna who report that it is better in most ways to most of their gear.

 

The answer is though that I most certainly have not abandoned hi-fi amps for pro audio gear. The Crowns were cheap, nearby and made for a good starting point for me. Luck has meant the Macro has inadvertently become a staunch benchmark on the 402's.

 

As time and opportunity permits I will try different amps on them. No hurry, but I would like to get the noisy fans of the pro gear outside of my system. The Crowns take a solid hour to reach critical listening warmth too...

 

My friend has an F3 and another First Watt amp to try, and I think I might get to hear a SIT 3 and F7 also.... I am sure they will be phenomenal, but I will put money on them not having the palpable dynamics of the Crown.   We will see! I am always happy to be proved wrong!

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Have you tried browsing around on how to get rid of fan noise.

As much as I recall, many have changed the fans for a more quiet versions.

Many actually reported that fans rarely even turned on.

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13 hours ago, parlophone1 said:

Have you tried browsing around on how to get rid of fan noise.

As much as I recall, many have changed the fans for a more quiet versions.

Many actually reported that fans rarely even turned on.

 

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have looked into quieter fan-blades, and will continue to do so. It could be a cheap solution, no doubt.

 

The Macro fan runs constantly, by design. It is not disconnectable in that it is actually a "Fan-Former" - and forms the power supply for parts of the amplifier. If the fan stops, the amp stops. Another fail-safe system.

 

I will report back as the journey continues, but right now I am in Fiji - where the sun is shining, the flowers are blossoming, and the stereo systems are ghastly... 

 

I did find this frangipani tree that appears to offering up the skeletal hand of homage to some axeman-god of Rock who has just busted out a mind-bending riff....

 

(Its the little things that please me, really...)

 

20190924_085338.jpg

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For those who may be interested - I had the opportunity to try First Watt F1 and F3 amplifiers on the K402's last night...

 

What contrasts to the Macro Tech!  Super laid-back and smooth. I can see why people love them.  Reminded me of the sound I used to get with my Khorns and Type 45 SET valve amps.  It was really special to hear such refined and 'cruisy' sound coming out of the Frankenstein speakers.

 

I had to play with the PEQ a bit to get them sounding right - using the Crown settings they sounded too rolled off, lifeless. Once I sorted that, they were fabulous.  They lacked the scale and dynamics of the Crown - the "wall of sound" was more like a glowing ball of sound.  Certainly they have opened my eyes to just how important it will be to find the right amp for the 402's.  I imagine that wherever I land, it will be halfway between the Macro Techs and something like the First Watts.  

 

Anyhow, if you get the chance to listen to a First Watt amp driving your K402's, take it.  What a treat.  

 

  

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How you aim those 402's is important too. I find if I tilt them forward and then focus left to right to be at an imaginary point behind me they work better. You are going to be surprised at the difference just aiming them will make.

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13 hours ago, Dave A said:

How you aim those 402's is important too. I find if I tilt them forward and then focus left to right to be at an imaginary point behind me they work better. You are going to be surprised at the difference just aiming them will make.

Just ordered a coupla laser cat toys - 2for$10 to try this.  Now how to attach them to the horns...?

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1 hour ago, Delicious2 said:

Just ordered a coupla laser cat toys - 2for$10 to try this.  Now how to attach them to the horns...?

 

I use a laser level to set the direction of my speakers, and I just hold it against each speaker while I tug it this way or that as needed.  These are La Scala IIs, and the previous owner put rubber feet on them, which makes it a bit more difficult.  With the first-gen La Scalas, their metal button feet made them easy to move on the carpet.  With the 402s you can easily swivel them as needed.  The direction of the bass bins is less critical, so you could just match up the bass horns with the tweeters.

 

As for settings, I just use the ones provided by Roy (Chief Bonehead), and the system sounds great.

 

That McIntosh amp looks great.  

 

BTW, I checked out the Listen button on the product page, and now I'm listening to McIntosh Music, their streaming channel.  Have you checked it out?

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10 hours ago, Islander said:

 

...With the 402s you can easily swivel them as needed.  The direction of the bass bins is less critical, so you could just match up the bass horns with the tweeters.

 

Don't mean to sidetrack this thread...

I have my K402s hanging over the front of the bass bin. They can still swivel if resting on their base rather than the leading edge of the bin but how do I attach the laser pointer perpendicular (and preferably centered)  to/on the horn mouth face.  As a pro horn I might wonder if Klipsch already has a method of pointing for pro installs???  

Is a laser level better than a pointer (cat toy) and why?

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If you look at the 3 way Jub the top center hole in the 402 just below the center of the 510 horn..............has no bolt.  I was told that hole is used for aiming.  Get your laser pointer out.

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3 hours ago, mark1101 said:

If you look at the 3 way Jub the top center hole in the 402 just below the center of the 510 horn..............has no bolt.  I was told that hole is used for aiming.  Get your laser pointer out.

Forgive my ignorance.  This is clearly a question from someone who has never attempted this.  (never even held a laser pointer)  Does the pointer shine out through the hole towards the listening position?  If so, how is it mounted to the back of the horn lip in a way which assures the beam is perpendicular to the horn face?  I had been thinking of mounting a piece of wood with a screw through that hole then use a square to tape a laser pointer to the wood perpendicular to the plane of the horn face but maybe that's all wrong headed...

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You are being way too serious.  I aim mine with a beer in one hand and one eye shut.  In my room it is almost impossible to get even 10 degrees off axis. :smile:

 

The other thing I forgot to say is that my chairs (2) both have wheels on them (ex-office chairs).  This is true.  I wheel around if I even sit down.  I have no listening position or sweet spot, or lounge chair, or couch.  It is more like a bar where you move around.  I rarely sit and listen to music.  How boring that is unless a good game is on.  I never listen to the TV.  :smile:

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To each his own 😁 Mark.

I''ll have fun rigging up something to get symmetrical laser dots focused at my PLP - a couch currently btw.  Guess I"ll PM Dave about it so as not to completely hijack OP's thread.

On 10/7/2019 at 4:59 PM, Ziggurat said:

For those who may be interested - I had the opportunity to try First Watt F1 and F3 amplifiers on the K402's last night...

 

What contrasts to the Macro Tech!  Super laid-back and smooth. I can see why people love them.  Reminded me of the sound I used to get with my Khorns and Type 45 SET valve amps.  It was really special to hear such refined and 'cruisy' sound coming out of the Frankenstein speakers.

 

I had to play with the PEQ a bit to get them sounding right - using the Crown settings they sounded too rolled off, lifeless. Once I sorted that, they were fabulous.  They lacked the scale and dynamics of the Crown - the "wall of sound" was more like a glowing ball of sound.  Certainly they have opened my eyes to just how important it will be to find the right amp for the 402's.  I imagine that wherever I land, it will be halfway between the Macro Techs and something like the First Watts.  

 

Anyhow, if you get the chance to listen to a First Watt amp driving your K402's, take it.  What a treat.  

 

  

I've enjoyed my First Watt SIT2 on my K402/TADs recently.  Currently trying a pair of Welborne Labs Laurel IIs on them and liking that too.

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1 hour ago, mark1101 said:

I aim mine with a beer in one hand and one eye shut

Now we're talkin'. You and Chief probably get along real well.

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1 hour ago, mark1101 said:

I aim mine with a beer in one hand and one eye shut.  In my room it is almost impossible to get even 10 degrees off axis. :smile:

 

👍😄

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5 hours ago, mark1101 said:

You are being way too serious.  I aim mine with a beer in one hand and one eye shut.  In my room it is almost impossible to get even 10 degrees off axis. :smile:

 

The other thing I forgot to say is that my chairs (2) both have wheels on them (ex-office chairs).  This is true.  I wheel around if I even sit down.  I have no listening position or sweet spot, or lounge chair, or couch.  It is more like a bar where you move around.  I rarely sit and listen to music.  How boring that is unless a good game is on.  I never listen to the TV.  :smile:

ALLRIGHT a voice of sanity and no laser pointer stuff here either. I however do mine with a cup of coffee and my built in eyecrometer and earcrometer.

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Delicious2 asked:  Is a laser level better than a pointer (cat toy) and why?

 

 

There's no need to get that technical.  I think the laser level may be better than a cat toy because it has a flat bottom surface, so when I hold it against the side of the speaker cabinet, it's pointing the same direction as the speaker, with no wobble or pointing off somewhere.  When aiming the tweeter horn, I hold it against the base that I made.  Those levels aren't that expensive, either.  Mine was something like $6.99 on sale at Canadian Tire.

 

I suppose that you could tape the laser into position, but I haven't found it necessary.  As for aiming it through the hole in the centre, sure, why not?  I've been using the inner sides, and that has worked out fine for me.  I recline the sofa to my usual listening degree and note where my head would be.  It's good enough to just place a sock or towel, or whatever's handy, to mark the place my head occupies.  Then just make sure that both speakers are aimed equally far from the sock/head.  

 

I've found that aiming the speakers straight at me results in a sweet spot that's barely the width of my head.  Therefore, I aimed them further outwards from the on-axis direction.  That's where the experimentation comes in.  Move one speaker so it's aimed a certain distance from your head, and match the other one an equal distance away on the other side.  Then listen.  Listen for a week or more.  Walk around the room.  Then maybe try a slightly different aiming direction, and listen to that for a while.

 

Keep in mind that there's no ultimate perfect orientation for your speakers.  Find one that works for you at that time.  Later, you may want to try something a bit different.  If it sounds good to you, it is good.  Have fun!

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1 hour ago, Islander said:

I've found that aiming the speakers straight at me results in a sweet spot that's barely the width of my head.

Somewhere on the forum there is an article on a study done on how to get the widest perception of stereo. I think the example they used was pretend you had a couch in your listening area. The right channel would point to the left end of the couch and vice versa. I have had good success with smaller speakers doing this. The 402 and super MWM behave a bit differently though. I never point speakers right at me anymore though under any circumstance.

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9 hours ago, Dave A said:

Somewhere on the forum there is an article on a study done on how to get the widest perception of stereo. I think the example they used was pretend you had a couch in your listening area. The right channel would point to the left end of the couch and vice versa. I have had good success with smaller speakers doing this. The 402 and super MWM behave a bit differently though. I never point speakers right at me anymore though under any circumstance.

 

That does sound logical, Dave.  My 402s aren't aimed quite that far apart at the moment, but I may try that next.  I'm experimenting with the tweeters first, and once I'm happy with them, I'll get some help to lift them down and then aim the bass horns to match.

 

In what way did you find with your 402s needed to be aimed differently from most speakers?

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11 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

That does sound logical, Dave.  My 402s aren't aimed quite that far apart at the moment, but I may try that next.  I'm experimenting with the tweeters first, and once I'm happy with them, I'll get some help to lift them down and then aim the bass horns to match.

 

In what way did you find with your 402s needed to be aimed differently from most speakers?

When I first set them up I aimed them like most do as a starting point. I noticed though that when standing or slightly off to one side or the other there was an odd increase of definition in what I could hear from the 402's. When I had another Klipsch head here and he said the same thing while standing I decided to start experimenting with aiming them. Pointing these in did not do well compared to pointing them out left to right and down top to bottom. I still occasionally fiddle with aiming them a bit but only in degree of tilt or left to right now and I must be getting close because I fool with them very little now.

 

  Caveat to this is that I have a poor listening environment. Sheet metal shop walls, concrete floor and lots of flat sheet metal surfaces abound on adjacent equipment. What I have discovered works in home theaters also though according to conversations I have had with others regarding this.

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