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TwinStick

And now, for something completely different....

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I am 56 yrs old now and have been buying Klipsch since 82' when I was in Germany. I have had this idea ever since we carried my LaScalla's up 3 flights of stairs......but never gave it any serious thought until recently, with all the advancements in technology. 

 

Would it be possible to design a miniature-ish folded horn, using a 6.5", 8" ,10",  or 12" high SPL driver ? I have no idea if this is possible but if it is & sounded good enough to put the Klipsch name on it, you would sell a lot of them. Baby LaScalla or baby Klipschorn. 

 

It could be a great way to guarantee future sales of the actual size ones. Even if you had to pair it with a sub, I know I would buy some. Just a friendly thought I wanted to share. Back to your regularly scheduled program now.  

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I saw a picture somewhere of a Klipsch employee who built scaled-down LaScala's that were roughly the size of a bookshelf speaker.

 

I think the concept is interesting, but there must be some reason it hasn't been done by Klipsch.

 

I agree with TwinStick; I'd buy a pair even if I had to pair them with a subwoofer, assuming the rest of the concept was sound.

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Go on the American Radio History site, download the March 1956 Popular Electronics, and read the article about the Klipsch Shorthorn.  They were remarkably good.  Back then you could even buy cabinet kits if you wanted to make your own.  

 

Maynard 

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The reason why it hasn’t been done is physics.  The laws of physics demand a larger bass horn than even in a La Scala to get real low bass.  That said, the horn loaded bass produced by La Scalas goes to approximately 150Hz, below that it acts as a 15” direct radiator.  That’s why the djk bass reflex mod works as well as it does.

 

I love the tight bass produced by La Scalas, with or without the bass reflex mod, and I understand why many use them very happily without a sub, or subs.  Scaling that down doesn’t work, at least it’s not worth the effort.  The complexity of a mini-La Scala will not result in a usable functional mini-bass horn.  You can’t make mini-bass waves.  At those sizes, the simplicity of a direct radiator or bass reflex box makes more sense.

 

IMO, fully horn-loaded is better, but the laws of physics demand bigger horns, not scaled down horns.

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It would work.  The K-400s in your La Scalas prove it.  The K-400 has a cut-off (low frequency limit) of about 270 Hz, also showing the limits of shorter (smaller) horns.  There's just no way to get horn-loaded bass without a long horn. 

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Landed on this vid a few weeks back, the guy building a 3D printed subwoofer and testing it out.

 

 

 

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LOL!  That's not a subwoofer, that's a woofer!  Just about anything can get down to 40 Hz.  Subwoofers work from 16 to 40 Hz. 

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Still, not bad for a 3" driver.  how about the same design sized up for a 10 inch.  

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3 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Still, not bad for a 3" driver.  how about the same design sized up for a 10 inch.  

More output (SPL with lower distortion), since the labyrinth length would be the same, with just a taller box with a larger cross section.

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4 hours ago, DizRotus said:

The reason why it hasn’t been done is physics.  The laws of physics demand a larger bass horn than even in a La Scala to get real low bass.  That said, the horn loaded bass produced by La Scalas goes to approximately 150Hz, below that it acts as a 15” direct radiator.  That’s why the djk bass reflex mod works as well as it does.

 

I love the tight bass produced by La Scalas, with or without the bass reflex mod, and I understand why many use them very happily without a sub, or subs.  Scaling that down doesn’t work, at least it’s not worth the effort.  The complexity of a mini-La Scala will not result in a usable functional mini-bass horn.  You can’t make mini-bass waves.  At those sizes, the simplicity of a direct radiator or bass reflex box makes more sense.

 

IMO, fully horn-loaded is better, but the laws of physics demand bigger horns, not scaled down horns.

Looks like you are calling for someone to build my Quarter Pie Bass horn, which gives you about 95% of an MWM single bin, while using 40% less floor space. It totally TROUNCES a LaScala using the same K33 woofer, as the horn is more than twice as LONG and give REAL BASS, not this mickey mouse BS bass reflex afterthought crap that was the bane of the Altec Voice of the Theater for so long!! Short Horns are just SHORT HORNS, so below the 104 hz. cutoff of a LaScala, it's just a direct radiator in a very tight environment, with or without additional ports.

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Interesting topic...once again.

 

I think some folks appear to want to forget Hofman's Iron Law.  Additionally, Olive and Toole quantified the value of loudspeaker low frequency extension at 25% of overall performance.  That's a big hit to take by trying to make the loudspeaker smaller.  Loudspeakers the size of La Scalas are already quite small relative to the bass sound waves that they are producing.  If you want smaller, go to a Cornwall or Heresy (in the Heritage loudspeaker line), or the Chorus or Forte, and take the hit in the cleanness of bass response from direct radiating woofers.  Otherwise, you're stuck with the La Scala or Belle bass bin size to get response down to a reasonable cutoff frequency--horn-loaded.  It's about as small as it gets for reasonable performance in room boundary effect.

 

Remember what PWK said:  “They make miniature tubes and miniature loudspeakers, but they have yet to come up with a miniature 32-foot wavelength.” 

 

20 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Short Horns are just SHORT HORNS, so below the 104 Hz cutoff of a La Scala, it's just a direct radiator in a very tight environment, with or without additional ports.

 

Well, not quite...in boundary effect.  The "104 Hz" horn is quoted but not attributed to full space loading.  When you move to eighth space, you get an additional 18 dB of output at 104 Hz.  That means that you get almost an additional octave of bass extension free of charge--simply by placing your La Scalas or Belles in room corners.

 

This effect is also quite apparent with the K-402-MEH...perhaps even more so than the above loudspeaker types since the K-402 horn is so much more effective at loading the woofers below the calculated full-space cut-off frequency.

 

Chris

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A bit of a different direction, but still in tune with the original header. And now, for something completely different.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

Interesting topic...once again.

 

I think some folks appear to want to forget Hofman's Iron Law.  Additionally, Olive and Toole quantified the value of loudspeaker low frequency extension at 25% of overall performance.  That's a big hit to take by trying to make the loudspeaker smaller.  Loudspeakers the size of La Scalas are already quite small relative to the bass sound waves that they are producing.  If you want smaller, go to a Cornwall or Heresy (in the Heritage loudspeaker line), or the Chorus or Forte, and take the hit in the cleanness of bass response from direct radiating woofers.  Otherwise, you're stuck with the La Scala or Belle bass bin size to get response down to a reasonable cutoff frequency--horn-loaded.  It's about as small as it gets for reasonable performance in room boundary effect.

 

Remember what PWK said:  “They make miniature tubes and miniature loudspeakers, but they have yet to come up with a miniature 32-foot wavelength.” 

 

 

Well, not quite...in boundary effect.  The "104 Hz" horn is quoted but not attributed to full space loading.  When you move to eighth space, you get an additional 18 dB of output at 104 Hz.  That means that you get almost an additional octave of bass extension free of charge--simply by placing your La Scalas or Belles in room corners.

 

This effect is also quite apparent with the K-402-MEH...perhaps even more so than the above loudspeaker types since the K-402 horn is so much more effective at loading the woofers below the calculated full-space cut-off frequency.

 

Chris

Understood, which is why the damn thing halfway works in the first place. But Roy Delgado's own PEQ settings for the LaScala Bass bin with the K402 top (which is grossly misnamed JubScala by people who should know better) clearly show a  -7 DB cut at at 140 Hz. to tame it. I have owned and lived with ALL of the bass horns from Klipsch, many times over the years, and all of them benefit from corner loading, as do all speakers, so your point is applicable to all of them, not just the LaScala. Depending on the speakers, sometimes corner loading produces and UNDESIRABLE Peaks, depending on listener location and the room volume. So it's NOT a cure-all situation in all cases. Luck has nothing to do with it, which is why we have to PEQ the crap out all of them, including what YOU do in trying to make Jubes sound as goo as passive multiple entry horns.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

...So it's NOT a cure-all situation in all cases...

If you do nothing to dial them in, then all the ills that you describe are true for all loudspeakers in home-sized listening rooms.  The thought of doing nothing to dial-in loudspeakers nowadays is a very tiring and hackneyed subject.

 

I think you know that PWK said that all (conventional) loudspeakers do better in a corner.  He didn't say to plunk them in a corner and then do nothing to dial them in. 

 

Chris

 

 

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Let's just calm down for a minute. Take a breath & ponder some things.

 

I have had sound systems in vehicles that sound great-with 6x9's & 6.5" speakers. I have 3 pairs of Klipsch bookshelf speakers that sound great - but do they produce earth moving bass ? No, they don't but they still sound great. I simply do not believe that a 6.5", 8", 10" speaker that has a spl of 100 db or more, in a double or triple folded horn would make it less efficient than a zero folded design. I fully understand that they would probably have to be used with a sub. I think they would sell like hot cakes.  I am a HS graduate so really don't want to get into scientific equations here. I'm just saying I think it is a great idea that would sell well & was willing to share it with a company that I believe in. Simple as that. I do not believe that it wouldn't work. I don't think anyone would seriously expect them to perform on the exact same level as the full sized ones. But it would bring the ability for so many people to be able to have great sound, nostalgia, and craftsmanship in a small area, like a bedroom or dorm room, small apartments,  etc, without taking up valuable real estate. 

 

I wish I had the money and the space for a new pair of LaScala's but I do not. It was just a friendly suggestion. Don't want a war here. 

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

If you do nothing to dial them in, then all the ills that you describe are true for all loudspeakers in home-sized listening rooms.  The thought of doing nothing to dial-in loudspeakers nowadays is a very tiring and hackneyed subject.

 

I think you know that PWK said that all (conventional) loudspeakers do better in a corner.  He didn't say to plunk them in a corner and then do nothing to dial them in. 

 

Chris

 

 

Yes, I agree 100% with this, which is why I PEQ them my MEH's for my room in all cases. No argument there. I do the same thing you do, generally speaking. I just think LaScala bass sucks without PEQ, and a good Subwoofer. Otherwise they are a good start to a great sounding Klipsch speakers system. 

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35 minutes ago, TwinStick said:

Let's just calm down for a minute. Take a breath & ponder some things.

 

I have had sound systems in vehicles that sound great-with 6x9's & 6.5" speakers. I have 3 pairs of Klipsch bookshelf speakers that sound great - but do they produce earth moving bass ? No, they don't but they still sound great. I simply do not believe that a 6.5", 8", 10" speaker that has a spl of 100 db or more, in a double or triple folded horn would make it less efficient than a zero folded design. I fully understand that they would probably have to be used with a sub. I think they would sell like hot cakes.  I am a HS graduate so really don't want to get into scientific equations here. I'm just saying I think it is a great idea that would sell well & was willing to share it with a company that I believe in. Simple as that. I do not believe that it wouldn't work. I don't think anyone would seriously expect them to perform on the exact same level as the full sized ones. But it would bring the ability for so many people to be able to have great sound, nostalgia, and craftsmanship in a small area, like a bedroom or dorm room, small apartments,  etc, without taking up valuable real estate. 

 

I wish I had the money and the space for a new pair of LaScala's but I do not. It was just a friendly suggestion. Don't want a war here. 

Unfortunately, it boils down to how much Inter-modulation DISTORTION you can tolerate by trying to miniaturize transducer systems too much for the sake of convenience. Sure if you listen to music at 60 decibel levels, then fine, this is where BOSE has made all their money, but if you want a "normal," low distortion, high definition music produced at 80 decibel levels, down to 30-40 Hz., the PHYSICS do not care about your "beliefs."

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45 minutes ago, TwinStick said:

don't want to get into scientific equations

Ah but that is where the TRUTH is:)

Those pesky 32 foot long waves and all.

No war....PEACE

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17 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

. . . the PHYSICS do not care about your "beliefs."

 

Amen.

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