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dpw325

RP-600m Advice Needed

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Hi all, I'm a first time poster, thanks so much for reading!

 

I picked up a pair of RP-600m speakers a few weeks ago based on stellar reviews and a great performance at my audio dealer's audition room.  However, I'm starting to sour on them, and before I do anything drastic, am looking to see what might help. 

 

Here's the problem--for solo instruments (guitar, bass, drums) they're incredible, nearly jaw dropping in their realism and airiness.  However, when a track gets complex, they fall apart and sound very flat.  For example, vocals in a track like Steely Dan's "Deacon Blues" or Adele's "Skyfall" sound and tinny, while the drums are very in your face.   To my ears, while they're great at presenting every detail of a track, they lack warmth and smoothness.  After 15 minutes or so, I'm fatigued and just throw on my headphones. 

 

I'm running them in a 15x20x9 room on 24" stands, with an Emotiva TA-100 integrated amplifier, and my audio source is Tidal via a Macbook Air.  I've tried different toe in, placement, and still no luck.

 

Any ideas on what's causing this?  Not enough power, or the quality of my electronics?  

 

Thanks in advance!

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50 minutes ago, dpw325 said:

Any ideas on what's causing this?  Not enough power, or the quality of my electronics? 

 

I've been there too...

 

Not all recordings, even commercial successes, are well mastered, and Klipsch speakers have tendency not to hide this, but to accentuate this... What sounds fine through earbuds, may fall apart and appear flat and dull.

If a record is well mixed and mastered, though, Klipsch speakers will make them shine even more... Not to worry, the time has come to rediscover your collection, and to discover even more good music.

 

Second, my advice would be to invest in a vacuum tube amplifier. Even a small one, like the Tubecube 7 (3.5 watts per channel) or a chi-fi hybrid amp, may sound better than what you have now.

 

Third, for me CDs sound better than Spotify Family.

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1 hour ago, ILI said:

Not all recordings, even commercial successes, are well mastered, and Klipsch speakers have tendency not to hide this, but to accentuate this

All true here but Steely Dan's Aja is a fine example of state of the art mastering in all it's forms. 

 

@dpw325,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Bill

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3 hours ago, dpw325 said:

Deacon Blues

 

It sounds fine on my living room system (spotify streaming, bluetooth, from laptop to Denon RCD41 microsystem (nothing much special) with my RP160Ms

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Strictly anecdotal: When I had my Forte III I was selling some room treatments to another owner of Forte III who was driving them with Emotiva amps. When he heard my Fortes powered by my tubed Quicksilver integrated (no room treatments involved) he couldn't believe the difference and said his Emotivas sounded harsh, flat and congested in comparison. Try and  borrow a tube integrated or a tube amp run from your preamp out to see if it makes a difference.

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I would suggest experimenting with positioning of the speakers in the room.

Try to place them at equal distances from adjacent walls, as equally as you can get. Then experiment with toeing in or out. 

Keep the space between the speakers empty if you can.

Then try to tame the sound reflections near the front of the speakers, you can try something simple as a shirt on a hanger and see if it helps. Also carpet in front of the speaker could help.

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6 hours ago, dpw325 said:

I'm running them in a 15x20x9 room on 24" stands, with an Emotiva TA-100 integrated amplifier, and my audio source is Tidal via a Macbook Air.  I've tried different toe in, placement, and still no luck.

It sounds like you've got some great advice, further upstream ^^^.  I've got the 600M and have run them as L/R in a 5.1 but also stereo for testing.  I have a Marantz SR6011 125wpc.

 

The 24" stands are perfect for the 600M.  I've never heard the Emo TA-100.  I don't run Tidal, nor Macbook Air. 

 

The best source I've used is Bluray with music.  I've found the 600M to have a full sound top to bottom.  They work best in that middle power range, low power is a bit thin, and if you play them crazy loud they will compress on top.  When the 600M is used with a 15" sealed sub they have a very similar characteristic sound to my RF-83's.

 

I play jazz (think horn line) and classical for music.  Other listening is 90% TV.  I find them to be accurate for male and female vocals/dialog, very articulate in the mid range with excellent separation.

 

I'll like to a couple of Youtube vids I know very well for male and female vocals.  If you will link to a tune you know well I'll play it and we can compare notes.

 

Randy Travis Forever and Ever Amen.  Tremendous male vocal, exposed, with nice stand up bass line.

 

https://youtu.be/sgJXbIP83A8?t=53

 

Dixie Chicks Ready to Run.  This will expose any sibilance, great dynamics on drums.

 

 

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Also, try to connect speaker cables to upper pair of connectors on the back of the speakers. That might change sound to your liking. If you loose some bass just move the speakers closer to the walls. 

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Danny Richie of GR Research just released the first of four videos on the RP-600M.  First one details the issues you may be dealing with and his solutions.

Interesting before and after measurements, which start 5 minutes into the video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arYwrAtcJZY

 

Second video

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ifiz6HrFd0&list=PLUFNGRKZZWXzCt2Syx4yjR4Oy7V-uiePB&index=24&t=0s

 

Third video

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxY5Ne1CK8&list=PLUFNGRKZZWXzCt2Syx4yjR4Oy7V-uiePB&index=25&t=0s

 

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On 11/28/2019 at 3:11 AM, parlophone1 said:

Also, try to connect speaker cables to upper pair of connectors on the back of the speakers. That might change sound to your liking. If you loose some bass just move the speakers closer to the walls. 

 

Man, if that alters the sound character you really need to clean up the connections on the jumpers!

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The connections are clean, checked 😀.

 

However, that does make a slight positive change in midrange presentation in my RF42s. I know these are not the same speakers, but it does not hurt to try.

Also, if Dave Ritchie's data are true the front parts if the speakers could be raised up a bit to fire more up. That should lower the acoustical gap in freq response where tweeter and woofer meet. If true, that would confirm Ritchies data.

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A little EQ can work wonders. I went from hating my RP280F speakers to loving them after a small turn of a knob on my Schiit Loki . Have you ever been told I don't use tone controls. I want to hear it like it was recorded. Im pretty sure the amp builders started this lol. Just like do you know how you hear Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. It came from a marketing campaign from general mills in 1944. Now its gospel. Use tone controls or eq if needed. 

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On 12/2/2019 at 10:34 AM, parlophone1 said:

The connections are clean, checked 😀.

 

However, that does make a slight positive change in midrange presentation in my RF42s. I know these are not the same speakers, but it does not hurt to try.

Also, if Dave Ritchie's data are true the front parts if the speakers could be raised up a bit to fire more up. That should lower the acoustical gap in freq response where tweeter and woofer meet. If true, that would confirm Ritchies data.

Yeah, I've heard the jumpers could be improved upon.

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On 11/27/2019 at 5:51 AM, dpw325 said:

Hi all, I'm a first time poster, thanks so much for reading!

 

I picked up a pair of RP-600m speakers a few weeks ago based on stellar reviews and a great performance at my audio dealer's audition room.  However, I'm starting to sour on them, and before I do anything drastic, am looking to see what might help. 

 

Here's the problem--for solo instruments (guitar, bass, drums) they're incredible, nearly jaw dropping in their realism and airiness.  However, when a track gets complex, they fall apart and sound very flat.  For example, vocals in a track like Steely Dan's "Deacon Blues" or Adele's "Skyfall" sound and tinny, while the drums are very in your face.   To my ears, while they're great at presenting every detail of a track, they lack warmth and smoothness.  After 15 minutes or so, I'm fatigued and just throw on my headphones. 

 

I'm running them in a 15x20x9 room on 24" stands, with an Emotiva TA-100 integrated amplifier, and my audio source is Tidal via a Macbook Air.  I've tried different toe in, placement, and still no luck.

 

Any ideas on what's causing this?  Not enough power, or the quality of my electronics?  

 

Thanks in advance!

This is a conundrum faced by all speaker builders, and a natural artifact of your hearing. I can listen to one person just fine, but 3 or 4 people start talking to me at the same time and things get confusing, it turns into midrange sizzle. This effect is multiplied by the tweaking that is done to music in the mastering process; in trying to level everything off, they compress everything together and narrow the soundstage. Many speaker makers adjust for this problem by lowering the output of the midrange in comparison to the highs and lows, making a V shaped frequency response curve. This is the reason why many audiophiles don't get that the music happens in the midrange. Klipsch, on the other hand, gets it. The frequency response curves on horn driven speakers accent the midrange. And Klipsch's solution for the midrange sizzle: Bigger horns. That's why your horn lens takes up half the speaker.

 

You can make gains. Have you tried toeing them in 45 degrees? Get them as close to the corners as you can, then make your seating position just behind where the lines of the two speakers intersect, in other words, at the tip of the triangle. And get a good usb DAC to run your mac through. I have a Topping D30, and you wouldn't believe the difference this 120.00$ DAC makes. Or if you can afford more:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/audio-dacs-streamers-servers-players-adcs.8/

 

Also, tubes and horns go together for exactly this reason, but do the placement and the DAC first. Look for a DAC that sounds warm. Even the best laptops can't beat the sound of a modest DAC, and there are some awesome ones out there. (Topping D50s, SMSL M500,  RME adi-2)

 

 

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On 11/27/2019 at 8:51 AM, dpw325 said:

I'm running them in a 15x20x9 room on 24" stands, with an Emotiva TA-100 integrated amplifier, and my audio source is Tidal via a Macbook Air.  I've tried different toe in, placement, and still no luck.

 

That's a fairly large room (wish I had the height you've got!).  How far from them are you and at what volume are you listening?

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Oh man, that stinks.  Give it time - it could be anything, including that the speakers just don't gel with your listening preferences.

 

If it is any consolation, I *love* how my system sounds, but I constantly am shocked at how bad all of Adele's albums sound on a highly resolving and dynamic system.  Sound great on a crappy car stereo or earbuds, though - which helps explain why she's sold a bazillion albums.

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12 hours ago, BadChile said:

Oh man, that stinks.  Give it time - it could be anything, including that the speakers just don't gel with your listening preferences.

 

If it is any consolation, I *love* how my system sounds, but I constantly am shocked at how bad all of Adele's albums sound on a highly resolving and dynamic system.  Sound great on a crappy car stereo or earbuds, though - which helps explain why she's sold a bazillion albums.

I found the same thing with her recordings. It's a shame such a great voice is being recorded so poorly. 

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