what amp for cornwall IV

[henry4841]

20 minutes ago, Islander said:

So do you consider a certain power output to be optimum when powering very sensitive speakers?  Maybe I got here late or am about to fall asleep, so please keep it simple.

First to admit my social schools are somewhat lacking. Sorry if anyone is offended by anything I said.

 

I would not say there is an optimum power need but I will say a single ended triode amplifier with 5 to 7 watts will be more than adequate for most on this forum using our speakers. I want slightly more in a SS amplifier being a SS amp clips horribly whereas a SET that clips at 7watts will sound perfectly fine at say 10 watts. In other words you will not notice it. Nature of tube amplifiers. Being that I consider class A is superior to any other form of amplification one is limited to 15 to 25 watt amplifiers which I consider amplifiers by Nelson Pass as the best. Many will not say superior but no one with electronic knowledge will dispute as being purist form of amplification. Why, because the audio signal is not manipulated in any way and another plus is less parts in simple class A reproduction. 

 

By the way all SET tube amplifiers are run in class A. 

[henry4841]

If anyone wants to take this discussion of power needs of 100db speakers further I will more than happy to take this subject up on a technical forum. I belong to the majority of them but consider diyaudio.com as the one I like best. Those that only talk BS do not last long on a forum where truth and facts are more important than making friends. 

 

All that really matters is that single ended triode amplifiers are perfect with 5 to 7 watts for our speakers. Anyone that disagrees can certainly spend their money on something else. 

 

By the way the colorful reviewer guy on youtube, Steve Guttenberg, has nothing but praise for the Decware Zen with it's 2 watts of power with speakers other than horns. I guess many on this forum will consider him stupid like me and Nelson Pass. 

 

 

 

 

[Islander]

I'm glad to hear that you've found the amps that make you happiest, and I'm being sincere.  I try to avoid BS.  I've never heard really good tube amps, so I have no opinion about them.  I know that the amps I use were designed for home use, and have their lowest distortion figures in the 6 to 10 watt range, and below that, they're still really good.  They are the amps that make me happiest.

 

Yes, truth and facts are important, especially in a hardware-centred hobby like ours, but making friends is at least as important as trading specifications, don't you think?  They can certainly co-exist, and that's the kind of forum that I like.

 

Keep in mind that perfection is a bit like the speed of light:  it can be approached, but never attained.  If a perfect amplifier was ever created, what would the company have to do to get repeat business?  The Bold New Grille?  Eventually, everyone who wanted their amps would have them, and that would be that.  Time to shut down the business, unless they can get by selling company-branded shirts and caps.

[henry4841]

I agree with what you just said Islander and I have probably said too much. A long time member on this forum whose trade before retiring was electronic repairs told me I am wasting my time trying to convince some of the truth and facts of the power needs with our speakers. 

 

Guys there is an easy test anyone can do at home with a decent AC voltmeter. Play your music as loud as you ever have in your room and measure the peak amount of AC voltage you are using. Then by using ohms law knowing the voltage and the ohm value of your speaker you can determine the amount of power you are truly using. Not as good as seeing it on a scope but plenty close enough. Below is an ohm's law calculator for those with no electronic background. I believe most will be shocked on how little power, on transients, you are truly using. The average power is going to much less. More than likely you will see milliwatts of usage. It will show just how great our speakers truly are with any amp on the market. Nothing wrong with mega watt amplifiers if the 1st watt sounds good but it is like buying a 200 mph car and never driving it over 70mph on the freeway. I say go for it if it pleases you. Absolutely nothing wrong with doing so but certainly not necessary.  Another thing if one wants the best sound, considered best by the best in the industry, you will one day want a SET amplifier. That being said there is no one amplifier that is going to suit everyone. All amps sound different. That is what I have found building probably close to 75 to 100 amplifiers in my 74 years. Just trying to pass on what I have learned for anyone that is interested before I am gone. 

 

 https://ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator

 

 

[henry4841]

Islander there are some class A SS amps I like the sound of but in an A/B comparison a good tube amp is going to sound better. I have something like 6 or 7 Firstwatt amplifiers right now with many more boards I have tried over the years. For SS lovers they sound really good but the edge goes to a tube amp. Class A amps use mosfets instead of BJT's and there is a difference in the sound between the two. As always some prefer the sound of one over the other even between SS amplifiers. Even some of the class D offerings will please many and many are reasonably priced and have tons of power. Wave of the future for the masses is going to be class D amplifiers. Rapidly taking over the market but still serious audiophiles will have better choices if they can afford it. 

[KT88]

I would like to bring an example. My tube amps have a very nice sound in some respects. I won't go into details, but spaciousness, strings, airiness and much more...everything is wonderful. Especially with Klipsch speakers, my old LaScala.

 

But I want to balance my impressions a bit. For example, I really like that absolutely thick and powerful guitar tone of Jazz guitarist Pat Martino. His 1972 recording of "Road song" or "How intensitive" has a physicality and a powerful roundness over my Quad Transistor amps, especially my 606 Mk1, that none! of my tube amps can realize. I'm talking from 4 watt 6V6 single ended self build by a friend, Audion 300B 7 watt SET, Leak stereo 20 PP EL84, Quad2 KT66 PP, up to Mcintosh MC275 Mk4 KT88 and MC2101 8x KT88.
This is not to say that my Quad606 is better in every way, it is not. But I am saying that there is no such thing as the best...apart from the synergies. My meanwhile 30 years old Tannoy 15" Alnico Canterbury also have high efficiency but the crossover is a bit tricky and they were designed for mighty SS amps...unlike the very old Tannoy gold monitors from the early 60s with 16 ohm coils and 20 watt max handling which are happy with everything tube. Mine have been in the 70s under the designation HPD385 in the Abbey Road and Decca Studios in London in Lockwood cabinets always paired with Quad SS amps. Alan Parsons has mixed with them the "Dark side of the moon" for instance at Abbey Road Studios. So please, there is not only one side of a non plus ultra. Both can please us to the highest level, tubes and sand, even AB sand...with the right partners in each case.
 

[Shakeydeal]

[babadono]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:01 AM, the real Duke Spinner said:

The HV Supply adds dynamic capabilities

Especially if one comes in contact with it

[Islander]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:25 AM, henry4841 said:

Islander there are some class A SS amps I like the sound of but in an A/B comparison a good tube amp is going to sound better. I have something like 6 or 7 Firstwatt amplifiers right now with many more boards I have tried over the years. 

 

Why do you have 6 for 7 very similar amps on the go at the same time?  Is it a quest for the ultimate synergy or optimum co-incidence of manufacturing tolerances?  Or is it that each one has features that the others don't, so that not one is actually your ideal amp, although they all come very close?  And what's a board?  Is is a particular circuit on a circuit board?  Just curious.

 

Oh, and since I have not heard a serious tube amp, I have no idea just how good they may sound.  If I ever heard one, I might think it's  the best thing ever, but as it is, my pair of dual-mono 500 Wpc Class D statement product amps, with vanishingly low distortion and noise figures, along with 100 dB crosstalk, sound great to me, with amazing detail retrieval, allowing me to hear new nuances in songs I've been listening to for 50 years.  They seem to have great synergy with the crossoverless JubScala IIs, whose HF sections are replaced with the big K402 horns and K691 drivers, while the LF sections of the La Scala IIs are stock.  The complete HF sections are disconnected.  

 

Now the signal exits the source (LP, Blu-ray/CD, Net Radio), goes through the preamp, then into the Electro-Voice digital audio processor, which is able to EQ the sound more accurately than any passive crossover.  From there the signal goes to the amps, and then directly to the drivers, with no capacitors or transformers to muddy up the signal.  Each woofer and each tweeter has its own channel of direct-fed amplification, which is another variety of purist signal routing.  It sounds really good to me, possibly because everything is operating within its most linear range.

[henry4841]

12 hours ago, Islander said:

 

Why do you have 6 for 7 very similar amps on the go at the same time?  Is it a quest for the ultimate synergy or optimum co-incidence of manufacturing tolerances?  Or is it that each one has features that the others don't, so that not one is actually your ideal amp, although they all come very close?  And what's a board?  Is is a particular circuit on a circuit board?  Just curious.

I am reluctant to post on this thread anymore because of my lack of social skills. I want to apologize if I offended anyone with anything I have posted and it was certainly not my intention.  

 

My thing is audio amplifiers and to answer your question each and everyone of Nelsons amplifiers are different in their design and sound. If one wants to hear the difference you must buy or build them. At least the ones that Nelson has generously released for publication. There are many of us on diyaudio.com in the Pass section that do the very same thing. Simple answer on why so many, just playing. It is what audio electronic nerds do at diyaudio.com and some other technical forums. Electronics does not lie. 

 

When I said boards one has to understand that most of the Firstwatt offerings use the same power supply and chassis with different audio boards so if makes it easy to swap boards of a new design by Nelson in an amp you have already built saving the major cost of building a class A amplifier. The biggest expense in building a class A amplifier are the heat sinks in a chassis and the cost of the power supply. I estimate the cost of building a  Firstwatt clone these days to be between $700 and a $1000. One could spend much more depending on parts selection and appearance. You can go to Firstwatt.com and read about the different Firstwatt amplifiers Nelson has designed and sold. https://firstwatt.com/

Also on the site is an article section with many of the published articles Nelson has wrote since 1977. https://firstwatt.com/articles.html I have built many of them as well. Some like the V-fet amplifiers I own are nearly impossible to build anymore unless one wants to spend an unreasonable amount of money finding and purchasing the obsolete static induction transistors. I have the PP V-fet version being one of the first to do so on the diyaudio forum. Right after then I asked Nelson on the forum about designing a SE version using the V-fet transistors and he said he would and did but if was a few years later. I also built and still have that one as well. The sound is very much like a single ended 300B amplifier in SS comparable to the retail SIT-1 and SIT-2 many members on this forum own. 

 

I am glad you like the amplifiers you have and there are many good things to say about the newer class D amplifiers. I am old enough to remember reading about them in the late 70's I believe I am close on the date. Back then they were lacking in high frequency response and really did not take off. I have built and own many of them over the years as well and I now have two I really consider not lacking anything when it comes to high end audio reproduction. Very nice sounding with tons of power for what they cost. 

 

The last few years I have been mostly building tube amplifiers. You may not have seen the projects I have posted on this forum. They can be found in the tube section with a step by step build guide of me building them. 

 

Most all the decent amplifiers sold now will sound good with our speakers. I would not say any are bad sounding from all I hear and read. The great thing about our speakers is we can use the 1 watt tube offerings or go for mega watt amplifiers as well.  Not many speakers can do that.

 

Enough rambling from a worn out cantankerous old man this morning. 

[82 Cornwalls]

31 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

  I have built many of them as well. Some like the SET amplifiers I own are nearly impossible to build anymore unless one wants to spend an unreasonable amount of money finding and purchasing the obsolete static induction transistors. I have the PP SET version being one of the first to do so on the diyaudio forum.

 

Hi Henry, just to clarify I think you are referring to SIT amplifiers in these 2 sentences, not single ended triodes.

[henry4841]

25 minutes ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

 

Hi Henry, just to clarify I think you are referring to SIT amplifiers in these 2 sentences, not single ended triodes.

You are correct. Corrected now. Should have said V-fet transistors which are static induction transistors much like the SIT transistors made only for Nelson Pass before the company closed. Originally made by Sony if memory is correct way back in the 70's. SIT transistors have curves in the data sheet much like a triode tube. Most all other transistors have curves like a pentode. My understanding is they are still being made but only available to the military because they are extremely fast. Used for radar and I expect other uses as well. 

[Islander]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:23 AM, henry4841 said:

I am reluctant to post on this thread anymore because of my lack of social skills. I want to apologize if I offended anyone with anything I have posted and it was certainly not my intention.  

 

My thing is audio amplifiers and to answer your question each and everyone of Nelsons amplifiers are different in their design and sound. If one wants to hear the difference you must buy or build them. At least the ones that Nelson has generously released for publication. There are many of us on diyaudio.com in the Pass section that do the very same thing. Simple answer on why so many, just playing. It is what audio electronic nerds do at diyaudio.com and some other technical forums. Electronics does not lie. 

 

I am glad you like the amplifiers you have and there are many good things to say about the newer class D amplifiers. I am old enough to remember reading about them in the late 70's I believe I am close on the date. Back then they were lacking in high frequency response and really did not take off. I have built and own many of them over the years as well and I now have two I really consider not lacking anything when it comes to high end audio reproduction. Very nice sounding with tons of power for what they cost. 

 

The last few years I have been mostly building tube amplifiers. You may not have seen the projects I have posted on this forum. They can be found in the tube section with a step by step build guide of me building them. 

 

Most all the decent amplifiers sold now will sound good with our speakers. I would not say any are bad sounding from all I hear and read. The great thing about our speakers is we can use the 1 watt tube offerings or go for mega watt amplifiers as well.  Not many speakers can do that.

 

Enough rambling from a worn out cantankerous old man this morning. 

 

Okay, I'll start at the beginning.  Please don't be reluctant to post here.  Like you, and like quite a few others here on the Forum, I've technically been an adult for roughly half a century.  Wow, what a wild concept!  So, that should mean that most or all of us have got it all figured out by now.  Hah!  If this were a public square instead of an online forum, and I asked everyone to put up their hand if they'd never said anything stupid, or accidentally offended someone, it would get real quiet and everybody would be looking around to see who thought they were perfect.  Well, none of us are.

 

The main thing is not to confuse what you say with what you are.  You say you have good intentions, and that's good enough for me.  We all know how typing out our words misses our various emphases, our body language, and so on.  For most of us, except those millennial types, and you know who you are, we didn't learn texting/keyboarding at the same time as we learned to speak, so we don't do it at an almost instinctual level, with very few misunderstandings.  Hmm, I don't have a millennial nearby whom I can confirm this with.  Maybe they screw up as often as we do, even with all those emojis to convey the nuances of what they're saying/typing.

 

Rambling?  If that was a problem, I would have been booted out of here long ago.  Next, feeling cantankerous is not the same as being cantankerous.  One may last minutes or hours, the other can last a lifetime.  Worn out?  Oh yeah, I can relate.  Still, gotta get out of bed sometime.  It might be a bad day, but it's not a bad life.

 

Thanks for getting back to me about the tube amps.  I'll have to have a listen to one sometime, but the idea of replacing tubes like lightbulbs, and whatever tube biasing is, make owning a tube amp sound like some kind of work.  Is it like that?  Or is it like owning a chain-driven motorbike, that needs to have the chain lubed regularly, and needs the chain slack to be checked regularly and adjusted sometimes?  That didn't seem too bad when I was doing it.

 

 

[henry4841]

2 hours ago, Islander said:

 

Okay, I'll start at the beginning.  Please don't be reluctant to post here.  Like you, and like quite a few others here on the Forum, I've technically been an adult for roughly half a century.  Wow, what a wild concept!  So, that should mean that most or all of us have got it all figured out by now.  Hah!  If this was a public square instead of an online forum, and I asked everyone to put up their hand if they'd never said anything stupid, or accidentally offended someone, it would get real quiet and everybody would be looking around to see who thought they were perfect.  Well, none of us are.

 

The main thing is not to confuse what you say with what you are.  You say you have good intentions, and that's good enough for me.  We all know how typing out our words misses our various emphases, our body language, and so on.  For most of us, except those millennial types, and you know who you are, we didn't learn texting/keyboarding at the same time as we learned to speak, so we don't do it at an almost instinctual level, with very few misunderstandings.  Hmm, I don't have a millennial nearby whom I can confirm this with.  Maybe they screw up as often as we do, even with all those emojis to convey the nuances of what they're saying/typing.

 

Rambling?  If that was a problem, I would have been booted out of here long ago.  Next, feeling cantankerous is not the same as being cantankerous.  One may last minutes or hours, the other can last a lifetime.  Worn out?  Oh yeah, I can relate.  Still, gotta get out of bed sometime.  It might be a bad day, but it's not a bad life.

 

Thanks for getting back to me about the tube amps.  I'll have to have a listen to one sometime, but the idea of replacing tubes like lightbulbs, and whatever tube biasing is, make owning a tube amp sound like some kind of work.  Is it like that?  Or is it like owning a chain-driven motorbike, that needs to have the chain lubed regularly, and needs the chain slack to be checked regularly and adjusted sometimes?  That didn't seem too bad when I was doing it.

 

 

A single ended ,SET, tube amplifier will never need re-biasing if done correctly when built. Majority that is, the ones with cathode biasing which most are. If biased correctly the tubes will more than likely never need replacing depending of course on tubes used. In other words no maintenance just like a SS amplifier. 

[Quad Khorns]

My God, after reading from the start of this thread till the end, I wanted to start weighing in about 8 pages ago on the discussion of SS vs. tubes. Not to support one side of the argument or the other, but to call out those self-appointed "experts" that vehemently argue that their position (equipment choices, or equipment philosophy) are the only correct path, and ridicule and belittle others who disagree with them. That actually pisses me off especially in such a subjective forum as audio. Everyone has their own experiences, opinions and tastes, and minds will not be changed by anything posted here - nor should they as personal tastes and how one wants to spend their money on audio is their right. NO ONE has the knowledge or credibility to scrutinize and criticize other's choices and preferences in audio equipment. When you start belittling and name calling you have lost the argument ... and all credibility.

 

As a person who has had a lifetime, and made a successful career of, designing test protocols, obtain the relative test data, analyzing that data, develop relevant predictive models, and prove those models with rigorous statistical methods ... I can firmly and without hesitation say there is NOTHING in this thread that offers ANY true proof supporting one side or the other...period.

 

And it never will because audio satisfaction is purely a subjective, human taste. Anyone who has been around this hobby for any length of time and listened to many other's systems and listen to other's personal tastes cannot reach any other real conclusion.

 

If that were not true there would only be a handful of amplifier, speaker, etc. manufacturers and music format providers.

[henry4841]

Just thought I would add, the biggest difference in sound is between a SET and other types of amplification. Naturally those that have heard many of both types will prefer one over the other. SET tube amps is my favorite, not to say I do not enjoy my others types of amplification as well. 

[Quad Khorns]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

Rambling?  If that was a problem, I would have been booted out of here long ago.  Next, feeling cantankerous is not the same as being cantankerous.  One may last minutes or hours, the other can last a lifetime.  Worn out?  Oh yeah, I can relate.  Still, gotta get out of bed sometime.  It might be a bad day, but it's not a bad life.

 

 

 

Anyone that can post a little sweetie such as yours in your avatar can't be all bad, haha

[henry4841]

1 minute ago, Quad Khorns said:

My God, after reading from the start of this thread till the end, I wanted to start weighing in about 8 pages ago on the discussion of SS vs. tubes. Not to support one side of the argument or the other, but to call out those self-appointed "experts" that vehemently argue that their position (equipment choices, or equipment philosophy) are the only correct path, and ridicule and belittle others who disagree with them. That actually pisses me off especially in such a subjective forum as audio. Everyone has their own experiences, opinions and tastes, and minds will not be changed by anything posted here - nor should they as personal tastes and how one wants to spend their money on audio is their right. NO ONE has the knowledge or credibility to scrutinize and criticize other's choices and preferences in audio equipment. When you start belittling and name calling you have lost the argument ... and all credibility.

 

As a person who has had a lifetime, and made a successful career of, designing test protocols, obtain the relative test data, analyzing that data, develop relevant predictive models, and prove those models with rigorous statistical methods ... I can firmly and without hesitation say there is NOTHING in this thread that offers ANY true proof supporting one side or the other...period.

 

And it never will because audio satisfaction is purely a subjective, human taste. Anyone who has been around this hobby for any length of time and listened to many other's systems and listen to other's personal tastes cannot reach any other real conclusion.

 

If that were not true there would only be a handful of amplifier, speaker, etc. manufacturers and music format providers.

Said much the same in my above message while you were posting yours. There is no perfect amplifier for everyone. All sound different but as stated above the biggest difference one is going to immediately notice is a SET tube amp over other types. There are some single ended SS amplifiers that are really close but not that common. Nelson Pass sells some SE SS amps. 

[henry4841]

1 minute ago, Quad Khorns said:

Anyone that can post a little sweetie such as yours in your avatar can't be all bad, haha

?

 

Did not know I had an avatar but the Little Sweetie is a fantastic little amplifier designed by our tube guru Maynard tubefanatic. The sound brings me back to what I was hearing 60 or more years ago. 

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:13 PM, SpeedLimit said:

Do someone know the damping factor of a McIntosh MA7200 ?

i wanted this kind of amp because they have output transtormers

 

I also have 300B valve amp, sounds good but not in the bass section.

I have a french EL34 PP valve amp, sound a little better in the bass.

 

I know that speakers with high efficiency do not need much power .. all of my amps sounds differently.

 

Now, i just wanted to try a McIntosh amp .. Have i made a bad thing by ordering such an amp ?

MC generally are not High Damping Factor amplifiers