Can Cornwalls Have Ambient Sound?

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

If you think this is abusive, you are a prime example of what is wrong in our “American culture”........./

What I saw looked ok up to this point between you and @Chris A but that YOU is going to get you every time. This is out of character for both of you so I can only assume there is something else going on. I'm not going to waste the time to figure out who started what, just not worth the time. There is an ignore button find it quickly. 

 

All of the extraneous jibber jabber is going away. 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

He did say this was a 2 channel home theater. So maybe he wants a more immersive sound field. See how ambiguous this all is. There are several ways to interpret his question but he offers no further explanation. 

The answer is simple, what he needs is CW IV's, and all of his problems will be solved.

 

CW IV's have ambience to spare, @Edgar knows this first hand and I believe @Shakeydeal does too.

[billybob]

52 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

If you have to turn the speakers around or face them at each other to correct a perceived problem, you’ve bought the wrong speakers. A pair of 50.00 speakers from a garage sale would give the same results.

Therein lies the problem. 😥

[Edgar]

1 minute ago, dwilawyer said:

The answer is simple, what he needs is CW IV's, and all of his problems will be solved.

 

CW IV's have ambience to spare, @Edgar knows this first hand and I believe @Shakeydeal does too.

 

I guess I assumed that the OP had CW IV, and was still having problems. Now I'm not sure which model Cornwall is being discussed.

[billybob]

1 minute ago, dwilawyer said:

The answer is simple, what he needs is CW IV's, and all of his problems will be solved.

 

CW IV's have ambience to spare, @Edgar knows this first hand and I believe @Shakeydeal does too.

Thanks for saying that word... ambience so much.

Was starting to doubt myself.

[Travis In Austin]

20 hours ago, Bubo said:

Not sure what you mean by ambient ?

Resonance ?

I think he means more dispersion. Here is the exact quote: "Is there any way to get a more "ambient" sound vs. directional from my listening." AND, it is in a HT Setup. So I think this request for information is spot on. 

 

When is the last time anyone listened to a 5.1 program/movie on a 2.0? This could be a million things. How is it being processed? 

 

At first I was going to say that amp would make very little difference, but after re-reading the post I realized it can make all of the difference. Is he running rca outs from his TV and using the variable volume feature to control sound. Or a preamp with processing? What processing.

 

I do agree with this and other posts that if you can get some clarification from @garthbernstein it would help answer his question. 

 

Photos of room would help, equipment in the stream. Is a center channel possible. 

 

I think the answer to this is that if he has room for a center (which all of you know has 80% of information in a 5.1+ movie) is going to be what is the best center for his application. If it's not possible then it's going to be clarification on what if any processing he is using, and what would be the best solution given room, equipment, etc. It may be his best path is a HT Receiver, or pre. 

[Travis In Austin]

18 hours ago, garthbernstein said:

Chris, unfortunately, I have no idea what any of your post (or previous thread) means...I'm a 5th grader audiophile!

That's cool, I'm at about 4th grade level, but these guys will make it easy to understand. 

 

I think it would help them in helping you if you list the equipment besides your tube amp you are using in your 2 Ch. HT system. Do you listen to music on it also, or just HT? Can you post a couple of photos of your room, or simple diagram? What preamp or processor are you using with you amp? Is a center channel an option if that ended up the best place to start or is that not an option?

 

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, grasshopper said:

sounds to me like he's hearing a speaker here and a speaker there.... whatever term is used to describe that

I think you nailed it, and I think PWK had a solution for this long, long before HT was even thought of. 

 

The good news is that HT programing is now mixed specifically for this issue and it it simple to fill the gap between L and R.

[Shakeydeal]

Well the OP seems to be MIA. It would be beneficial for him to explain in more detail his situation and what he hopes to achieve. Seems a little vague at the moment and everyone is guessing at best.

 

Shakey

[Travis In Austin]

1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:

Well the OP seems to be MIA. It would be beneficial for him to explain in more detail his situation and what he hopes to achieve. Seems a little vague at the moment and everyone is guessing at best.

 

Shakey

I'm sure he will when he gets home from work.

[billybob]

Maybe so. Sure is fun and informative meanwhile. I mean, speculation is a fun time what with all the time on some of our hands.

Or, not so much...

[Bubo]

48 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

@garthbernstein

It may be his best path is a HT Receiver, or pre. 

 

The best way to make 2 speaker sound like 4 speakers, is to add 2 more speakers....

 

May be fast and cheap to add two low cost rear speakers and experiment with synthetic surround and various delay aka Concert Hall options. Can KGs be had cheap ?

 

High quality 15 year old Surround Receivers are literally a dime a dozen, I usually pay less than  $20 if in good working order. Who cares how much they paid, the market does not want them without the latest chip sets .......

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Doesn't that defeat the very purpose of having a Cornwall? I mean, for that you could put a K33 or a CW1526 into a generic vented box and accomplish the same thing.

So if this is the prime concern (for you) I'd see why you'd be looking under every rock for a different way to interpret what the OP was asking. 😉

 

I instead took the OP at face value...and answered his question(s), straight-up, because I believe that I was in that same situation (twice) and found what I believe is a good solution that doesn't permanently alter the loudspeakers, and in reality, isn't really that difficult to do (and is even easier if the person asking has help dialing them in).  I think the price is still right (even though it's grown by $140 since I did it two years ago due solely to two or three ESS pricing changes). 

 

If you look at the two threads that I linked, above, I'm not alone in preferring the third-party midrange/tweeter to address known issues with time alignment, polar coverage mismatches, and overall perceptions of a "flattish" sound stage image.  This is especially true in those instances where the loudspeakers really do need to help the sense of depth and "ambience"--like using Cornwalls as surrounds, and Khorn clones in a 13.5 x 12 x 8 foot room.  In those two instances, the AMT-1 provided a significantly enhanced sense of naturalness and ambience, and a much more diffuse soundstage image that one gets with dipoles/bipoles.  If you go to the Cornwall/AMT-1 thread, it will show the measured distortion, (I believe) the horizontal polar sonogram, and its SPL/phase capabilities both before and after correcting EQ (the driver has the flattest phase response that I've ever seen, even considering the TAD TD-4002 drivers in my Jubilees). 

 

The Cornwalls and Belles would be gone by now if I wasn't using them in the setup (the only one that I use in my home), since they are not small enough to store any more for "future use" in my abode.  I think that's a good enough reason to modify them to my needs. 

 

If it bothers you that I'm taking a 41 year-old pair of Cornwalls (and 15-year-old Khorn clones) and successfully and economically modifying them for my needs, I don't know what to say. But I acknowledge that it might bother you.  I think I've done my due diligence in this instance in gathering and posting the relevant data and subjective listening impressions, and the "how to" parts of the story.  I merely shared all that existing knowledge with the OP.  If that bothers you, I don't know what to say, yet again.  I'm an engineer, and I share my knowledge for others to use successfully.

 

You did notice that the only thing I was using was the K-33 woofer in a well-designed vented box (as @Rudy81 has actually done using another design--DIY and third party woofers). That's true, and any well-designed woofer-in-a-box would also work, but I have owned the Cornwalls for greater than 12 years, and wanted to use them instead of them taking up floor space in one of my bedrooms.

 

Chris

 

[billybob]

Respectfully, if I were to take the OPs "ambient" literally and with no other context to qualify it, I would answer his question as a no.

[Shiva]

The air is getting a bit foul here.  Lol.

 

 

[mike stehr]

Maybe the Cornwalls need more Soup....

 

 

 

[Chris A]

22 minutes ago, billybob said:

Respectfully, if I were to take the OPs "ambient" literally and with no other context to qualify it, I would answer his question as a no.

If you haven't heard the Cornwall/AMT-1s from this thread, I recommend hearing them.  It always is interesting what people think after they actually hear the loudspeakers in question.  In this case, you're substituting one horn-loaded full-range driver (the AMT-1) for two horns and two drivers.  

 

I can think of another similar approach used (JubScala, JubBelle, JubWall, etc.) using either the K-510 or K-402 horns and full-range compression drivers--which I also enthusiastically endorse--if you've got the bucks for it.  The difference in the AMT-1 case is that the price is about 1/8th to 1/10th of those "Jub" modifications due to the high cost of using good 2" compression drivers and rather expensively priced horns designed by Klipsch (...but probably not explicitly fabricated by them).  The other hardware--mainly a DSP crossover--and dialing-in processes used is exactly the same.  That's where the idea actually came from, as well as the news of the dramatic price decrease of the AMTs two years ago. 

 

Chris

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

So if this is the prime concern (for you) I'd see why you'd be looking under every rock for a different way to interpret what the OP was asking. 😉

 

I instead took the OP at face value...and answered his question(s), straight-up, because I believe that I was in that same situation (twice) and found what I believe is a good solution that doesn't permanently alter the loudspeakers, and in reality, isn't really that difficult to do (and is even easier if the person asking has help dialing them in).  I think the price is still right (even though it's grown by $140 since I did it two years ago due solely to two or three ESS pricing changes). 

 

If you look at the two threads that I linked, above, I'm not alone in preferring the third-party midrange/tweeter to address known issues with time alignment, polar coverage mismatches, and overall perceptions of a "flattish" sound stage image.  This is especially true in those instances where the loudspeakers really do need to help the sense of depth and "ambience"--like using Cornwalls as surrounds, and Khorn clones in a 13.5 x 12 x 8 foot room.  In those two instances, the AMT-1 provided a significantly enhanced sense of naturalness and ambience, and a much more diffuse soundstage image that one gets with dipoles/bipoles.  If you go to the Cornwall/AMT-1 thread, it will show the measured distortion, (I believe) the horizontal polar sonogram, and its SPL/phase capabilities both before and after correcting EQ (the driver has the flattest phase response that I've ever seen, even considering the TAD TD-4002 drivers in my Jubilees). 

 

The Cornwalls and Belles would be gone by now if I wasn't using them in the setup (the only one that I use in my home), since they are not small enough to store any more for "future use" in my abode.  I think that's a good enough reason to modify them to my needs. 

 

If it bothers you that I'm taking a 41 year-old pair of Cornwalls (and 15-year-old Khorn clones) and successfully and economically modifying them for my needs, I don't know what to say. But I acknowledge that it might bother you.  I think I've done my due diligence in this instance in gathering and posting the relevant data and subjective listening impressions, and the "how to" parts of the story.  I merely shared all that existing knowledge with the OP.  If that bothers you, I don't know what to say, yet again.  I'm an engineer, and I share my knowledge for others to use successfully.

 

You did notice that the only thing I was using was the K-33 woofer in a well-designed vented box (as @Rudy81 has actually done using another design--DIY and third party woofers). That's true, and any well-designed woofer-in-a-box would also work, but I have owned the Cornwalls for greater than 12 years, and wanted to use them instead of them taking up floor space in one of my bedrooms.

 

Chris

 

That is the winner for the most off topic response to a basic speaker placement sound question.

 

All of this reminds me if Sling Blade, 3.guys standing around a law mower and Carl walks up, unscrews the gas cap and says "you got no gas." 

Meanwhile [in our version] they continue to discuss what they have in their lawmowers, jet skis, snowmobiles back home, Champion vs. NGK, best spark gap . . . .

 

What do you need to know to address his question? Which model. Why is he listening to HT in 2.0? 

 

Here's an interesting question, if this same post was made in the HT section would the responses have been different? 

[Chris A]

22 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

That is the winner for the most off topic response to a basic speaker placement sound question.

  

This was the original question, Travis (below).  I addressed that question after I saw many responses that didn't address it.  I don't believe the amp makes a difference in the way the OP asked the question(s), but I did address the question of the thread title: "Can Cornwalls Have Ambient Sound?".  They can, but they're probably not Cornwalls anymore.  Then I explained how that can happen.

 

On 12/27/2020 at 11:56 AM, garthbernstein said:

For my 2 channel home theatre, I have a bad room layout (furniture, small area rectangular), with souped up Cornwalls and a Triode TRVSE35 tube amp.  Is there any way to get a more "ambient" sound vs. directional from my listening area with the Cornwalls?  Does the amp make a difference here at all?

 

Chris

[billybob]

This is all an exercise in good information that may or not answer the question.

As of now. just have very little to go on.

This topic is more typical than not.

It calls for assumptions based on abstract expressionism.

Unfortunately, it happens all too often here where the OP disappears into the ether.

We shall see...