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Heresy-Forte-Cornwall ... Why such a price gap


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Posted (edited)

Hello everybody,

 

I just sold my Heresy ii (commercial variation with front ports KP-2500-C ) and now I am torn between speakers in 4th generation of Heritage line. I want to get an upgrade, but not sure why exactly there are such a significant price gaps between Heresy, Forte and Cornwall... It appears that all three have same tweeters and mid-range drivers, and while woofers are different , it does not feel the difference justifies those price gaps... Are we paying extra premiums for more wood and more plastic in horns (and air in the box)?

 

The three differences between Heresy and Cornwall are woofer size, body size and crossover points (network boards appear to be identical)...(I guess we can add horn shape here as well).  I understand that bigger box means bigger sound, but why twice the price? What is so different about Cornwall in labor and parts' costs that justifies the gap? I see that Forte has entirely different crossover network, bigger magnet on the main woofer and one+ passive radiator... The price difference between Heresy and Forte makes more sense to me (somewhat), but I do not understand why Cornwall price is much higher. 

 

What am I missing here?

Edited by TAliyev
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Development costs for each model, storage costs, material costs, time factor for final adjustments, transport costs, positioning of the pricing within the range and within the market, marketing costs.

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2 hours ago, KT88 said:

Development costs for each model, storage costs, material costs, time factor for final adjustments, transport costs, positioning of the pricing within the range and within the market, marketing costs.

They share major components and use the same type of wood / finish between models. I was also surprised to see that on Forte while using bolts to attach active drivers, they use plain screws-to-wood attachment for passive radiator... Inconsistent assembly methods... 

 

RF-7 III uses similar wood and more advanced woofers and still priced below Cornwall and Forte.... and assembled in US as well...

 

I am not questioning the sound quality here... I am a fan of Heritage line... Just trying to make sense of the pricing....  

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& the prices are up in the last couple of years too.

From a different view, have you been able to listen to those different models anywhere?

Haven't heard any of the IVs yet.

Because it is more than just specifications and construction, it's the timbre (use that word a lot) the sound pressure & the soundstage too. There are threads here where folks modify the cabinets as they will. I lost the sound pressure of my old Heresy IIs that I loved for the improved bass & soundstage of the Forte IIIs. Then I went and auditioned some flawless 1990 La Scalas a year later, that was a mistake I loved them. I'm saying it could also be what you would get out of them. Impressed upon me was the higher the sensitivity the lower you could go with the volume and still retain the feel of the sound from the speakers.

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No matter the product companies across the board charge more for their “premium” models. It’s a business marketing strategy - .

Heritage models sit atop the Klipsch model line - and naturally command the better materials, the made in USA moniker and such. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

& the prices are up in the last couple of years too.

From a different view, have you been able to listen to those different models anywhere?

Haven't heard any of the IVs yet.

Because it is more than just specifications and construction, it's the timbre (use that word a lot) the sound pressure & the soundstage too. There are threads here where folks modify the cabinets as they will. I lost the sound pressure of my old Heresy IIs that I loved for the improved bass & soundstage of the Forte IIIs. Then I went and auditioned some flawless 1990 La Scalas a year later, that was a mistake I loved them. I'm saying it could also be what you would get out of them. Impressed upon me was the higher the sensitivity the lower you could go with the volume and still retain the feel of the sound from the speakers.

I have not heard any of IV-th generation Heritage speakers... I do know how La Scala II sounds like as well as gen 3 Forte and 3&2 Heresy...and  Klipschorn...

I was initially set on Forte IV (as an upgrade from H2) but Paducah guys started to push Cornwall and I got confused.... Started digging into specs and reviews ... and got even more confused :)

Edited by TAliyev
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That I can comprehend easily. Because I have read that you have to have a large room for the Cornwalls. Or serious bass-traps. Since then I've decided that if MWM stacks or Khorns will fit through the door I'd be happy to have them, so I'm in the bigger is better camp obviously!

 

Cory knows his stuff and he is always busy. If you ask him about this I'm sure he would offer an astute opinion when he gets back with you. You recognize that you have to look into it yourself though, that's good.

Good Luck with it!

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Yesterday I (along with my wife) have managed to visit somewhat local Klipsch Heritage dealer and auditioned all but Klipschorn gen 4 speakers there... Voice of Forte was not to my liking  (but my wife liked it). To me it was either too "boomy" or/and "midrange compressed and narrow" depending on positioning of those speakers. Heresy set was very lively but lacked bottom end and Cornwalls sounded "complete"; La Scala was explicit but on the bright side and lacked bottom end. 

 

More impressions/observations:

- La Scala is too large and produces "incomplete" sound by itself, considering the price point, you are not getting your money worth (even with the current inflation factored in ). 

- Heresy will work wonders when paired with a sub.

- Cornwall has large footprint and "complete" sound, but might become boomy when backed against the wall (which I will need to do in my situation).

- Forte has very "unfinished/uneven/unbalanced/narrow" voice which can probably be calibrated by properly positioning it , but this might be difficult to accomplish.

 

The best deal/voice combination is Heresy + sub .... but I just sold my H2 and getting H4 will not "feel" as an upgrade...

 

This leaves me with Cornwall .... Still it feels that I will be paying twice the price ($3k+) for wood and air, because there is nothing technologically different between Cornwall and Heresy..

 

Another possible option is RF-7 III, but I do not know any place in the area to audition one ....

 

...Just venting my inner pressure here... :)

 

 

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16 minutes ago, TAliyev said:

Yesterday I (along with my wife) have managed to visit somewhat local Klipsch Heritage dealer and auditioned all but Klipschorn gen 4 speakers there... Voice of Forte was not to my liking  (but my wife liked it). To me it was either too "boomy" or/and "midrange compressed and narrow" depending on positioning of those speakers. Heresy set was very lively but lacked bottom end and Cornwalls sounded "complete"; La Scala was explicit but on the bright side and lacked bottom end. 

 

More impressions/observations:

- La Scala is too large and produces "incomplete" sound by itself, considering the price point, you are not getting your money worth (even with the current inflation factored in ). 

- Heresy will work wonders when paired with a sub.

- Cornwall has large footprint and "complete" sound, but might become boomy when backed against the wall (which I will need to do in my situation).

- Forte has very "unfinished/uneven/unbalanced/narrow" voice which can probably be calibrated by properly positioning it , but this might be difficult to accomplish.

 

The best deal/voice combination is Heresy + sub .... but I just sold my H2 and getting H4 will not "feel" as an upgrade...

 

This leaves me with Cornwall .... Still it feels that I will be paying twice the price ($3k+) for wood and air, because there is nothing technologically different between Cornwall and Heresy..

 

Another possible option is RF-7 III, but I do not know any place in the area to audition one ....

 

...Just venting my inner pressure here... :)

 

 

 

TAliyev, I like the way you describe the different speakers very quickly, precisely and straightforwardly from your personal point of view, it's very comprehensible. I have never had a Heresy (I have an old 1977 Lascala for 22 years and an Underground Jubilee for 14 years). For me, the Heresy would probably be the most attractive of the new speakers because of its features and combination possibilities. Actually, it is a pity that it is not a really nice emotional new acquisition for you. You write succinctly and show that you can rely on your ears quickly and very well. For this reason, if I were you, I would try to borrow the CW4s at home for test listening (if the dealer is close by, maybe he would accept it?), because it would be a pity if they drone and you have no other choice in placement. 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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Oy Vey! ... Just ordered Cornwalls from Paducah... Will be enjoying (hopefully) extra wood and air in the near future :) .... All those stupid things we do for satisfy our childish urges for toys! 

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Hi,

Here in Europe at a lot more increase than at home again. I bought my Cornwall III new and sealed boxes in July 2016 in Germany for €3020 per pair delivered to my door in France (a 1200kms / 750 Miles trip) on a pallet. Today Cornwall IV cost 8000€ in Germany and 8790€ here in France, that's about 270% or 290% increase, it's crazy!

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4 hours ago, TAliyev said:

Cornwalls sounded "complete"

 

Congrats on your purchase.  This (they sounded complete) might also be a reason they can charge what they do.....  the speakers check many (correct) boxes.

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13 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

Congrats on your purchase.  This (they sounded complete) might also be a reason they can charge what they do.....  the speakers check many (correct) boxes.

 

As long as there are idiots who pay, there are smart ones who charge.... I am both semi-proud and semi-troubled to be a member of the first group ....

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Hey @TAliyev

Congrats on those new Klipsch! 

& remember if they sound "not right" upon first setting up... modify their placement slightly until it's right. Should be simple recommendations in the paperwork.

 

The booming Fortes are not my experience once they were set up right. You don't have a rear radiator to consider so there are other possible requirements. On top of that, room furnishings alter and shape the sound.

 

You probably knew that, the dealer might have disregarded it in order to get more product in the showroom. To his chagrin that might could hurt his sales depending on the budgets of his customers!

 

Enjoy!

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Posted (edited)

I've received , unpacked and plugged-in my new speakers... It is break-in time now :)

The "first sound" impression is "Ehh... I have probably wasted my money.... as expected..." (I am pessimist in nature)

Will let them play non-stop for a week or so, then will re-analize their voices....

 

They are about 6.5 feet apart tilted upward by about 2 degrees and to each other by about 7 degrees.

Inner top corners are 2" from the back wall, outer top corner 4.5" from the back wall.

Inner bottom corners are 2.5" from the back wall, outer bottom corner 5.5" from the back wall.

Right speaker is 1.5 feet from the side wall, left speaker is about 10 feet from the side wall.

Opposite wall is 24 feet away...

Edited by TAliyev
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7 hours ago, TAliyev said:

I've received , unpacked and plugged-in my new speakers... It is break-in time now :)

The "first sound" impression is "Ehh... I have probably wasted my money.... as expected..." (I am pessimist in nature)

Will let them play non-stop for a week or so, then will re-analize their voices....

 

They are about 6.5 feet apart tilted upward by about 2 degrees and to each other by about 7 degrees.

Inner top corners are 2" from the back wall, outer top corner 4.5" from the backwall

Inner bottom corners are 2.5" from the back wall, outer bottom corner 5.5" from the backwall

Right speaker is 1.5 feet from the side wall, left speaker is about 10 feet from the side wall.

Opposite wall is 24 feet away...

You bought the CW4 I think? 

And why the feeling you have wasted your money? Why don't you like the sound? 

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The price gap between models can be attributed to marketing.

 

Production costs don't necessarily parallel the increased cabinet sizes or cost of materials, but PERCEIVED tolerable pricing for the consumer-Consumer looks at

"the box" and makes a decision whether the price makes sense. For instance, if price went DOWN instead of up with increased speaker size, what would the

consumer think and how would that affect purchasing decisions?

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1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

You bought the CW4 I think? 

And why the feeling you have wasted your money? Why don't you like the sound? 

Yes, I bought CW4.

 

While they sound "big" in my setting, they do not sound as big as they actually/physically/visually are (and my room is pretty large).   Obviously this is a very subjective statement...

Their voices are not as "clean/transparent" as I'd want them to be at this price point. I will need to play a little bit with positioning but since they are very large, I do not have much flexibility in this regard. I may tilting them a bit more up/down/left/right shift from the wall by an inch or two but nothing more beyond that.

Still, they are new and have not went through the break-in (100 hours or so)... and I do believe in speaker/amp/dac break-in time performance changes.... based on my own experience with various audio equipment pieces.

 

They do sound bigger than Heresies II I had (and remember, those were commercial/stage ported variations, not sealed "home" versions). But when those H2s were supported by my sub,  together they were sounding very full and complete.... I had other issues / complains with their voices, but not sound fullness/ 3D imaging (with sub support) ...

 

At this point I still believe that new ported H4 supported by a decent (but not overly large) sub would provide the best flexibility/performance/return on investment in Heresy/Forte/Cornwall group...... But I bought Cornwalls ..... so I could "see" my upgrade from H2s ..:) ...(see my post above about idiots and smarts)

 

Still my CW4s have not been broken-in yet...

 

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10 hours ago, TAliyev said:

I've received , unpacked and plugged-in my new speakers... It is break-in time now :)

The "first sound" impression is "Ehh... I have probably wasted my money.... as expected..." (I am pessimist in nature)

Will let them play non-stop for a week or so, then will re-analize their voices....

 

They are about 6.5 feet apart tilted upward by about 2 degrees and to each other by about 7 degrees.

Inner top corners are 2" from the back wall, outer top corner 4.5" from the back wall.

Inner bottom corners are 2.5" from the back wall, outer bottom corner 5.5" from the back wall.

Right speaker is 1.5 feet from the side wall, left speaker is about 10 feet from the side wall.

Opposite wall is 24 feet away...

 

Pictures of the Listening Room and Setup would help everyone here to understand somewhat the conditions leading to your listening impressions.

 

What is your ceiling height and is it flat, cathedral, …etc?

 

What is the listening distance from the speakers…?

 

Is the 6.5ft separation of the loudspeakers measured from tweeter to tweeter…? IMHO unless you are doing a near field setup this is not enough of a spread to develop a more natural life size image reproduction. In my experience horns systems having better polar control often sound better and image better when they subtend listening angles larger than the often recommended angle of 60 degrees and my preference has often been between 70 to 80 degrees.

 

miketn

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1 minute ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Pictures of the Listening Room and Setup would help everyone here to understand somewhat the conditions leading to your listening impressions.

 

What is your ceiling height and is it flat, cathedral, …etc?

 

What is the listening distance from the speakers…?

 

Is the 6.5ft separation of the loudspeakers measured from tweeter to tweeter…? IMHO unless you are doing a near field setup this is not enough of a spread to develop a more natural life size image reproduction. In my experience horns systems having better polar control often sound better and image better when they subtend listening angles larger than the often recommended angle of 60 degrees and my preference has often been between 70 to 80 degrees.

 

miketn

 

I am not here to advertise my home :)

 

6.5 feet is between inner lower corners, so between tweeter centers I have about 8.5+ feet. Ceilings are 7.5-8 feet .

 

I have CW4 in the same room and position where my H2s were (H2s were raised by about a foot from the floor and tilted angled in about the same way as CW4 )... So CW4 tweeters are at about the same position where H2 tweeters were...

 

 

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