mobile homeless Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I havent tried the Valve Arts, mainly because I have been so happy with the Sovteks as my workhorse, and many of the guys I have talked to in the past rate the Sovteks higher than the Valve Art option. Being so close in price, I have just elected the Sovtek the worker, putting extra money in better 2A3 options. I will say that tubes do sound different at different operating points which might explain some of the findings. Generally, you hear of the Sovtek getting higher marks than the VA tubes. As I remember from reading, the Paramours operate with less current. Some tubes do like to run pretty hot, and I think the Sovteks, which are pretty damn robust, perhaps do better here. They have pretty nice low end in my view. Actually, where the RCA VT95 Black Plates do much better is the more beguiling midrange, where it walks over the slightly more coarse and not as refined Sovtek. To me, it's not a question of bottom end (which is very rich and alive, if not quite as tight in the utmost sense), as much as a question of the more refined nature the RCA CRC VT95 Black Plates bring to the table, a difference that is well worth the price in my book, especially if listening to music that rewards this. I have heard no modern tube that gets this same soul and essence, including the KR2A3 and TJ Meshplates. But remember that earlier point, that different operating points can bring tubes into their sweet spot via the corresponding circuit(amps seem to have certain sweet spots too, for that matter). I think KR tubes might reward some more current as well(it's an easy mod on the Moondog to get 4w from the KR). Still, I had them in my Moondogs for well over a month and sold them back to the seller as no one in my household thought they exhibited the soul and midrange of the RCA VT95, these at about the same price. The KR were very clean and tidy, and quiet as get out, not to mention the nice extension. They had the most SS sounding bass. But damn if the mids just didnt have the magic. People that go for the extremes over the mids might like the KR. It didnt float my boat at all, even to the tune of $150 a pair. Tim, I think you can actually forget about the advantage of the RCA CRC VT95 when running the Sovtek. Then, when you get these back in, you suddenly find yourself saying, "Oh yeeeeaa. Lordy. That is what I was missing..." It's a very subtle but important difference. Audrey prefers the RCA way over all the other options. She can tell the switch every time, especially with vocals and acoustic instruments. I still have never had AVVT Meshplates due to the various reliability problems. I'll try them some day. My good friend with the Wright Sound amps loves his vintage Monoplates the best - I need to drop in and hear these but I might be spoiled. He blew 700 or so on two ebay purchases without blinking an eye...but is loving it. And next time I come across some VA, I will give them a whirl, though. Remember, you just arent hearing the tube; you are hearing it within the environment of your whole system, something that can be easily forgotten. There are lots of variables at play. Taste and preferences comes into account as well, something that must always swirl around in the background of recommendations. kh PS: JHawk92 - You mean you would still be this nice especially after ole Roy came back home? I ran into him smiling on Franklin Street earlier this summer... You are very gracious for a JHawk! heh... Chris, it's a plan! Craig, thanks for the comment - I didnt know you waded through those pesky 2A3 posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I think over the last few years the Russians and East Europeans have really narrowed the gap between their stuff and much of the NOS. They are just plain getting better at it. As soon as they master putting together quality small twin-triode signals tubes -- I don't think there will much to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I would have to agree with Dean current production tubes have come a long way ! I have put the dreaded Sovtek 5AR4 thru some brutal testing and its held up like a good soldier ! Same can be said for the Russian 7189's 100's in the field without a single failure that could be attributed to the tubes ! Svetlana and EH KT88's & EL34's do a admirable job also. Craig Kelly, I read all the posts on tubes ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 It seems like everyone just loves the EI KT-88, and the Svetlana and JJ Tesla EL-34 are now being compared to some very expensive NOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I remember both you guys being much more positive about new tubes before I left. Well, to be honest, I have never really had a lot of reliability problems with new tubes, except for a Svetlana EL-34 that went south and took out my ASUSA amp's power supply. I have always felt the Svetlanas to be good bargains with decent sonics. I have now heard various modern outputs from Ei, Sovtek, EH (close Relative of Sov in some instances), Svetlana, JJ/Tesla, TJ/Full Music etc. I have had good experiences with many of those and would recommend various samples from each, depending on the choice. On the other hand, I have to admit that I have not heard any of them actually equal the sound of the best NOS options. They are getting a hell of a lot better, but none of them in my opinion equal the midrange luxury and sonics of the best NOS in their selections. Where I would go modern, mostly because of price and ease, would be EL-34 and KT-88 types, 7189, where the NOS have just gotten rather berserk. The various modern EL-84 do ok also, but dont equal even the better Euro/US NOS. Still, they are worthy as backups and workers. Add the 2A3 to the list as backups, too. Ditto with some of the 300B options. I still have not actually OWNED a Mullard EL-34 but have heard them. Ironically, even though the Chinese EL-34 have gotten a bad rap, I have heard a few that didnt sound that bad as well. But when it comes to the minipin tubes, the NOS just are on a totally different playing field. And the modern attempts at the 6SN7 have been horrifying, from a sonic standpoint. You are right; they have come a long way. Still, for the ultimate, NOS is the way to go, in my view, and if the ducats and system permit, there is reward all the way around. Let's keep buying the new tubes to keep them in business, though. As long as there are a plethora of new tube amp companies, then the modern manufacture still has incentive. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 also, do not forget that sovtek is making the 2A3 with gold grid wire as an alternative now, which gives it a somewhat "RCA black plate"-ish sound. at least that is what I heard between the standard sovtek 2A3 (which I thought sounded great and had great bottom on my PP 2A3 amp) and the gold grid version, somewhat warm in the mid bass and mid range with some slight loss of detail (?)...not being the wordsmith that kelly is I can only say try the sovtek gold grid and see if it floats your boat...newsensor was selling them (not listed on the site by call for info) for $60 / each....same as the normal tube...try it you may like it...a screaming bargain IMHO and will keep me from buying those big buck tubes I suspect. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 A quad of some of some these NOS output tubes costs as much as an amp upgrade -- forget it -- I'd rather upgrade my amp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 ---------------- On 8/12/2003 11:02:07 AM DeanG wrote: A quad of some of some these NOS output tubes costs as much as an amp upgrade -- forget it -- I'd rather upgrade my amp! ---------------- Dean, Do you also prefer to modify your car's engine before buying better tires for improved traction? Sometimes tubes upgrade brings bigger improvement than equipment change/upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Amen, brother! Anyone whoever swapped out a quad of RCA or GE 6L6GC for a quad of GEC KT-66 or WE 350B in a MAC MC-30 or MC240 will TESTIFY to that. Changing outputs tubes can COMPLETELY transform an amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Lordy, Allan! I have to get used to seeing you with that serious signature list... You arent messing around anymore! Would love to listen to some tunes out there and sip something to cure the blues of life back to normal. Then again, I just went swimming in the Atlantic this morn. It could be far worse as life back to normal is far less normal than most. I need to get my TT back setup as I had to DE-RENT-IFY my house. Currently, I am listening to a digital amp with no vinyl. Things are upsidedown these days, which might account for me drifting back onto this forum. If only it was like OJ's glove.... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 ---------------- On 8/12/2003 1:19:42 PM mobile homeless wrote: I need to get my TT back setup as I had to DE-RENT-IFY my house. kh ---------------- You RENTED your home while you were away?? Hopefully to someone who appreciated the content within ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Perhaps rent is too strong a word. We had family supposedly coming in to stay a week or two during the month and help with the mutant feline, who usually cant decide whether she wants in or out. They are second cousins, twice removed, third in line; in other words, they were freaks pulling the ole family card for the summer fun beach rental for dirt-cheap. They had sea kayaks, Irish Wolfhounds, two damn Whippets, a 67 Volvo, and round classes. I started thinking about the whole affair, even after putting away everything that swiveled or rotated, and had second thoughts, then deciding to change the locks, the house number, and hire Italian hit men for duty. Or something like that. Seriously, I am only now starting to feel semi-normal again. Returning home, it looks like I have more gear than sense... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 ---------------- On 8/12/2003 3:23:30 PM mobile homeless wrote: They had sea kayaks, Irish Wolfhounds, two damn Whippets, a 67 Volvo, and round classes. kh ---------------- Man, that's serious. Everything's okay until you get to the 67 Vulva's (I mean Volvo's) ... that's SERIOUSLY deviant. Hope the cat didn't jump on your P6D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 67 deviant vulva's. Sounds kinda scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 ---------------- On 8/12/2003 12:38:28 PM Allan Songer wrote: Amen, brother! Anyone whoever swapped out a quad of RCA or GE 6L6GC for a quad of GEC KT-66 or WE 350B in a MAC MC-30 or MC240 will TESTIFY to that. Changing outputs tubes can COMPLETELY transform an amplifier. ---------------- Greetings: Having a pair of McIntosh 30s and two (2) 240s I can add that some of the 30s will not accept KT-66s as both McIntosh and Audio Classics will tell you. The plate voltage is different and some 30s will not accept that change. As for 240s I have heard the highest quality using Blackplate RCA 6L6GCs. I have had some members of the Rochrester Philharmonic over and they agree. For the price differential I would rather buy more RCA Blackplates. The cost differential for the KT- 66s IMHO vs the difference in sound - staging, detail, accuracy plus my listening and concurrence by others, give the Blackplate a solid edge. I have not seen many MC - 240s with anything but a 6L6GC. If one can find and be sure of the dating, the G.E. year 1962 were the best they put out and were not out sourced. Again, it goes back to hearing curve, tolerances and also the tubes used in the preamplifier stage of the MC 30 or the MC 240, the match with the Preamplifier itslef and then again with the speakers owned are part of the "Chemistry." Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 ---------------- On 8/15/2003 8:46:45 AM dodger wrote: ---------------- On 8/12/2003 12:38:28 PM Allan Songer wrote: Amen, brother! Anyone whoever swapped out a quad of RCA or GE 6L6GC for a quad of GEC KT-66 or WE 350B in a MAC MC-30 or MC240 will TESTIFY to that. Changing outputs tubes can COMPLETELY transform an amplifier. ---------------- Greetings: Having a pair of McIntosh 30s and two (2) 240s I can add that some of the 30s will not accept KT-66s as both McIntosh and Audio Classics will tell you. The plate voltage is different and some 30s will not accept that change. As for 240s I have heard the highest quality using Blackplate RCA 6L6GCs. I have had some members of the Rochrester Philharmonic over and they agree. For the price differential I would rather buy more RCA Blackplates. The cost differential for the KT- 66s IMHO vs the difference in sound - staging, detail, accuracy plus my listening and concurrence by others, give the Blackplate a solid edge. I have not seen many MC - 240s with anything but a 6L6GC. If one can find and be sure of the dating, the G.E. year 1962 were the best they put out and were not out sourced. Again, it goes back to hearing curve, tolerances and also the tubes used in the preamplifier stage of the MC 30 or the MC 240, the match with the Preamplifier itslef and then again with the speakers owned are part of the "Chemistry." Win dodger ---------------- Hello: I did forget to note that McIntosh MC 240s are Class B, using the Kt-66 is tetrode, 6L6GC, their perferred Pentode. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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