ARE WE A DYING BREED ?

[dodger]

Greetings:

At almost 51 years old, I am seeing the choice of products for two (2) channel stereo evaporating.

I've gone form Mono to Stereo, LP to CD. with new possibly at some point, non compatible with my equipment, SACDs coming.

I've seen four (4) channel come and go, the equipment for HT become more intrusive due to the number of speakers needed in specific locations.

I've seen large woofers shrink while the sub-woofer market expands, quality control in speaker manufacturing declining, also some of the materials used become less costly.

Using an HT set-up for music does not sound right to me, as some Engineers start to place instruments behind you in Recording.

There's Masters, remasters, remasters of remasters, boxed sets of CDs fail to include all or after the boxed set is released another set with additional tracks comes out.

The price of NOS tubes is outrageous, even with the limited supply

I have other examples but it can be like fighting City Hall. The technology is there so the market gets hyped - like telephone companies that say/whine they don't have enough numbers while advertising second lines for computers.

Sometimes it feels like evrything and almost everyone has decided to leave a section of the population behind. A dinosaur.

Ah well, welcome to the world that changes ten (10) times faster than a few years ago.

Disposable society, disposable people.

Win dodger

[mobile homeless]

Actually, two channel audio is not dying at all. And there are more tube amps and preamps being made now than in 35 years, with far more options! There are several companies attempting to make some tubes that at least come near some of the better options with a few examples doing a credible job. And tube amps have never been easier to buy or MAKE with perhaps the healthiest DIY contingent in years, all thanks to sharing schematics and info via the internet.

Vinyl has hasnt been this good since before the 80s! Indeed, there are more high quality turntable choices out now then in the heyday of vinyl. In addition, there are quite a lot of quality TT on the used market. New records ARE being made and some of the better releases are being done in nice vinyl more 180g releases now than in the last 25 years or more.

Yes, the mega stores serve the mass stuck in the flock to go to surround/multichannel but dont think that 2 Channel is dead at all. It still serves a niche and a healthy one at that.

When I joined this forum, it was trailing in posts by the thousands to the Home Theater and General Questions forums. Now this area has MORE posts by over 10 thousand, passing the HT and General brigade...

2 Channel, tubes, and vinyl are still going along. Yes, the niche will be getting smaller but I dont think it is dying anytime soon.

kh

[ssh]

dodger,

There are many more options,but since I enjoy multiple formats,and am new to tubes(grew up listening to them,though)myself,I don't see multichannel as encroachment.Like language,music is dynamic,and WOW! what a great time to do audio .

SSH

[dubai2000]

Kelly's remarks are probably true when it comes to equipment, but where are the 'young' people discovering this hobby? Go to a hifi-shop and you'll hardly see people who are below 30. When I look at my pupils at school, I realize that they still like music, but as a download from the computer or as part of a HT setup. This lack of a new generation of music lovers who also care about quality reproduction is what I find sad .

Wolfram

[middlecreekguy]

Perhaps this trend will change with the resurgence of vinyl. Most of the young crowd have grown up listening to CD`s and have only been introduced to records since high school. I myself was into high end audio by my freshman year of college only because I got a job at a stereo shop, but I could not afford that type of gear and went a step lower which is where I still am today to a certain extent.

Not having enough money and no advertising by the high end side has alot to do with when and who gets the bug for tubes and such.

[mobile homeless]

There is gear out there that any high school or college student could afford, even with a normal part time job. In fact, in many ways, these types of systems assembled from great used gear bring the most happiness! I still rank one of my early systems (in a good room) as one of the best, as in most enjoyable, I have ever owned! And this system was peanuts in comparison, assembled over time and with careful research.

Today, something like this is even EASIER to amass due to the internet. Buying used gear has never been this easy! In fact, I made a system for my wife before we got married for DIRT cheap that would probably wipe any of your friend's systems, not to mention their parents...and THEIR friends!

Source: Used Rega Planet

Amp: EICO HF-81 EL-84 Integrated (my favorite integrated bar none)

wire: Used AQ Ruby & AQ F-14 (among others)

Speakers: Polk RT5 w/sand & shot filled stands

Total cost: $675 including everything

Sound: Amazingly open, detailed, insane imaging, speakers disappearing with soundstage past outer edges and a good 5-6 feet behind speakers. No fatigue. Natural top end with see-thru open, relaxed quality that smoked many a high end system. Actually, this system in her great room brought people from all over trying out their CDs!

This figure is less than a good many useless rack systems with bells and whistles galore. The EICO has gone up a bit but still in the doable range. Enter Scott, Fisher, and Dynaco if you desire.

kh

[garymd]

I think we all agree but we're the ones putting those systems together, not the average 18 year old college student. How do we get them in the mix or do we even care? I'm teaching my 20 year old son everything I know about audio and helping him put a system together. Most of us here probably will do or have done this with our kids. They just need to spread the word. I don't see it happening though.

[mobile homeless]

I have gotten more people into tube audio than I can count on six hands! You would be surprised how much one person could do if you put your mind to it. Start spreading the word and letting people listen! Again, exposure is the key. I get mails from all over from many people that made the switch. A few would surprise you; it's like a domino affect...and the ones you get into it get others and on and on (some of your forum mates as well, heh).

In addition, you know that system of my wife's above? At the time, she was teaching English at a boarding school called Mercersburg Academy, living in a 200 yr old apartment with nice rooms. Every student that came in and heard that system was shocked! Even I was surprised at their reactions! Many ran back to their rooms and found CDs they wanted to hear. None of them had ever seen tubes before and all sat transfixed. A few of the more curious actually got me to tell them all about tube amps.

Most have never head a good system setup properly. When they do, and are open and taking it in, many cant believe it. On the other hand, we dont want TOO MANY taking those precious tubes!

kh

[garymd]

I've been trying. No successes yet. I'm only a few months into it myself. I can tell you that everyone who has listened to my system who doesn't already have tubes wants to convert at some point but it doesn't seem to be a priority.

[Dflip]

The children today listen to mp3's, music videos and play video games. All I had in the late 60's was a 19" black and white t.v. with 13 channels, one of which was French and the family's Lloyd stereo system. As a result I listened to top 40 radio and then bought 45's to play on our record changer.

Eventually when I got a summer job I invested in a Pioneer 737 receiver, a Dual turntable with Shure V-15 cartridge and a pair of Audio Analyst speakers, all for under a $1000 Cdn.

I am now on my 4th amp/preamp combination, previously had SAE and Acurus. The Cornwalls I bought from a friend in 1981 and have been with me since. The tubes experience is more enjoyable and am very glad I took the plunge after spending a year and half reading everything posted here by Kelly, Dean, Craig, etc... I don't watch that many movies, so have not gone the HT route.

I must admit, many a night when I am either on the computer, or watching the Jays, Leafs or Raptors, the music is on and the sound on the t.v. is off. It is a great way to unwind after an exhauting day at school, especially just before bedtime. Almost as good as a cold beer, but without the risk of a hangover the next morning. It will have to do since I gave up alcohol two years ago.

Are we a dying breed? maybe, but I figure to still be around for a long while and will continue to enjoy this "expensive" habit. The only difference now compared to thirty years ago is...I don't have to put cotton in my ears to stop the bleeding caused by the SAE and I don't play "That's Where the Happy People Go" very often any more. The jazz has changed from hearing it on all the old movies on Saturday and Sunday afternoons on the Buffalo t.v. stations, to now playing it on Cd at night.

Whenever anyone hears what good music sounds like they are impressed and I don't have half the system that some of you out there possess. Kelly convinced many here to give tubes a chance and he deserves a lot of credit for improving the quality of our listening time. It is enjoyable to have him back, imparting his opinions and experiences to us and allowing us to chime in with our opinions/responses and I assume in time, critiques/disagreements. Hopefully the honeymoon will last a while longer.

My university days taught me do holistic problem solving, looking at all possible alternatives. Many here seem to follow the same approach in a never ending desire to achieve "better" musicality. This approach doesn't seem to be too popular today, especially with the politicians speaking from the "Right."

[garymd]

I guess came in after Kelly left but I can tell he jumped right back in where he left off. Another 2-channel expert here (along with Craig, Win, Dean and the rest) to help me and others in our quest. This forum has certainly been a great experience for me and I hope to be able to pass along my limited knowledge to anyone I can help. I've also made many friends during my short membership. We don't always agree but that's half the fun of it.

[dodger]

Greetings:

Maybe part of what I am experiencing is age related. Now I almost sound like some other's Fathers.

On the Forum we have many people posting two (2) channel. What ages ?

This is not to disrespect any young two (2) channel people or any more mature (older.)

There is more tube gear, but the prices can be theft. The older tube equipment is maintained but how many get into repairing equipment, maintaining it.

I see all of the points mentioned and I come to agreement with Wolfram that a good number wish to have more than just a two (2) channel system.

It boils down to:

1. Advertising

2. Changing models of equipment so rapidly

3. The changing speed of modes of HT 4. Prices escalating on new equipment.

5. The fact that in a few eccentric cases we drive hundreds of miles for speakers, I was to go to Baltimore this weekend but truck springs threw that out. That's been in the works for a looong time.

6. Dwindling numbers of two (2) channel only equipment on display.

Maybe, it's the state of mind as Fall draws near. And maybe it's the fact that I have too much equipment or not enough pre-amps and speakers. LOL

I'm glad this Forum, Kelly, Daddy Dee, Chris, Craig, Wolfram, Chris, Greg, Craig, Ryan, Jhawke,Prodj101 and the rest of you are around to help me and the ability to help you and others. A migraine doesn't help.

So I'll take two (2) channels and call in the morning. LOL

Thanks Everbody (that's never said too much or often)

Win dodger

[ben.]

Win-

Consider yourself lucky the springs didn't break at 75mph with CW's in back!!

Don't let me forget about that manual!! Time is tight right now, but I will find it. Feel free to email me as a reminder.

Ben

[bkrop]

Win: while I have been listening to vinyl that I have owned since after the dawn of CDs, I have recently started buying LPs again. I have a HT setup but listen to music almost exclusivly in stereo. My observations...

Only one in forty HT recievers sold have a phono stage.

In the two used record/CD stores I have been in during the last 3 months I have never seen such a collection of piercings, tatoos, doorags, boxers that go over the lumbar vertabrae pants that go below the crack, Gawd I feel old and get the appropiate looks from the next generation of audio enthusiasts.

So maybe all is not lost with the younguns!

[artto]

Quite frankly, I can't remember the last time I bought a new mono system.

[greg928gts]

Win, I know where you're coming from, that feeling that so much is changing in our world and so many things seem to be taken for granted and just thrown away. When something you hold so dear, like a great 2-channel audio system, is seemingly being relagated to old fogie status. But, I always have to remind myself that there are many significant changes taking place in our world that offer us so much more than we ever had in our past, like the internet. When I think about how all of us on this forum are using this great web to improve our knowlege and offer us such widespread access to products and people, it gives me great joy. My system is better than it's ever been, and that is completely attributable to the knowledgable and helpful people on this forum and the internet in general. Dying breed? No, a rare breed, growing, changing, and pushing boundries.

Greg

[Aggie Klipsch]

I agree with you guys. A friend of mine i go fishing with coined a phrase that I thought was interesting. He called all of the mass that buys into the latest and greatest (sheeple). They tend to gravitate to the latest car, cell , so on and so on. What's wrong with 50 year old tech that sounds as good as the latest on the market? Just a slanted view. As I write this the latest dribble is on MTV, just turn it off Steve, wait what about the hotties? I would rather go fishing for trout on the White River in Ark. Enjoy.

[WMcD]

Gee Dodger, you seem a little angry and depressed. Please don't be; at least take a good look at it.

I'm exactly your age and believe things are wonderful, particularly for Audio. Getting old ain't for sissies. The perspective of 50 years has allowed us to see so much change. Some for good, some for bad. Mostly for the good.

Please let us remember that there was guile and junk in all the past decades and even centuries. Get mellow, read Diserata. Smile.

As pointed out above there is a ton of old recordings available. More than anyone hoped for. Now some people might not like CDs. However, the new media probably made more "old" recordings to be reissued than would be without it.

Market demand has put the tube industry back on its feet. Who would have predicted that when transistors first displaced it. K-Horns are available on the used market and new ones can be bought. Our spending power is probably better than ever.

There is something of a cycle to some things. People who criticized their parents for driving 2 ton land barges are now driving 2.5 ton SUVs. (I stole that, but it is funny and correct.)

Life is wonderful. The only deal we have, and better than ever.

Best,

Gil

[jt1stcav]

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On 8/28/2003 6:05:02 PM artto wrote:

Quite frankly, I can't remember the last time I bought a new mono system.

----------------

It wasn't exactly new, but it was new to me when I bought it 2 years ago...a 1933 Emerson-Ingraham vacuum tube AM mantle radio, in glorious mono!

I still enjoy my 2-channel only system (what's left of it). My brothers have their HT rigs, but they were all originally stereo only systems, and they eventually turned into multichannel. But music is still their primary reason for existence...multichannel/movie watching is only secondary.

[Deang]

I've just been sitting back and watching this thread develop. Interesting.

"Sheeple", I really like that. Man, ain't it the truth?

Like most things, it comes down to lack of education. Most people just don't know what we know. As usual, it's propoganda that pulls the masses in whatever direction it tells them to go. It's not that people are brainless, they're just lazy. Nobody wants to do the homework. It seems that lies can make it around the planet before truth gets her boots on.

I think Win has valid points, but the thing to remember is that there has been a separation of sorts. Kelly is right: 2-channel is making a comeback, but it is a niche market. It's certainly not as big as HT. I know people who spend as much on their screens as I have in my whole system. The separation is found between the serious audio hobbyists from those who are focusing on DVD movie watching and gimicky multichannel. It didn't take the serious audio hobbyist long to figure out that you can only watch a damn movie so many times, and that multichannel is more of a distraction while listening than anything else.

"You would be surprised how much one person could do if you put your mind to it. Start spreading the word and letting people listen!"

Kelly the Evangelist.

After I made my first pass through the New Testament, I figured out how much of the Old Testament was explained, things I just never understood while reading the Old Testament. I was commenting on this to someone once and they informed me that "the Old Testament was the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament was the Old Testament revealed". Well, I thought that was pretty nifty. I was later involved in a philosophical/religious discussion with a close agnostic friend of mine who commented that he couldn't understand a single thing out of the Old Testament. My response was that he should read the New Testament. John started losing some ground in the discussion, and decided it was time to pull out the trump card: "You know Dean, that's the problem with religion, as soon as someone "gets it", they feel like they have to jam it down everyone's throat." I asked him, when you find something that works, that delivers as advertised -- do you tell other people about it, or do you keep it to yourself?"

No, we're not going to talk about "religion", there is actually an audio related point here.

What I find interesting is that some friends I have, and most of my family -- felt that I was totally off my rocker when I first started getting into this stuff. When I started getting into tubes, I could tell by the looks on their faces that they thought I had gone completely off the deep end. When time came for their audio purchases or upgrades, they wouldn't even tell me. They knew what I was going to say, and they would avoid me like the plague -- probably praying they could make it to Best Buy and back without me busting them. It was like they thought I would completely freak out on them. It drove me nuts. Here I knew all this really cool stuff -- and they just didn't really want to deal with it.

I've learned that many people aren't like me. I love information. For me, the scariest thing in life is being ignorant. Most people just don't respond to words anymore. I don't know why that is. I think that's why I like forums and email so much. It gives me a chance to communicate with people like me. At any rate, the way to turn the tide is to show them.

I'm not one to show off what my system can do. My listening sessions are a deeply personal thing because I use music to tame the beast. I'm arrogant, strong willed, self defeating, and expend much energy trying to keep myself from getting depressed simply because of how the world is. I've said in the past that I use music as therapy, and I wasn't kidding. Besides prayer, music is the only thing I have that can completely shake out the stress. I use it to get into the minds of the artists -- which takes me out of my mind (hmmm...poor choice of words there maybe). So typically, when family or friends come over, it just doesn't enter my mind to take them up for a listen.

Over the last couple of months however, I have changed that. Now I drag them up, kicking and screaming against their will for their own good. I have two chairs now, and what I enjoy doing when the music comes on is sitting back and watching their faces. It's the greatest feeling in the world watching the lights come on. Yeah, NOW you understand don't you?

Instead of talking people to death, we just need to invite them over for coffee and a listen.