fini Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 ---------------- On 10/8/2003 7:31:19 PM mdeneen wrote: P.S. I think the only thing missing from the Kincaid above is the (in)famous bumper sticker. ---------------- I may be wrong, Mark, but that does not look like the Cleaver house, as I remember it... fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Somethings are found only in America. (I linked it because I did not want to "muddy up" the thread.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 This thread couldn't get much muddier. Look what Jim started! I'll give an 8 for style, a 9 for form and a 10 for sheer embarrassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 That guy was named Bob, he had the afro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Now that are country has been dragged through the dirt here. All I can think to ask to the people dragging it through the Dirt is .. Why do you stay ?? There must be something you like here ?? If your all so appalled by what goes on in this country then what are you doing to change it ? I mean if this is how you see the USA why stay ? You are free to live anywhere in the world and if other countries are so much better than why stay ? I'm sorry to mix it up and rarely want to get involved in Politcal discussion in a puplic forum but I just have to ask the above questions to anyone that would paint a picture like above and anyone that would agree. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 IS this the first thing you think of asking, Craig? Why stay? Why not leave? Things are a bit more complex than that, both in the posts I have read and the situation at hand. Yes, we are critical of this country, but we live here and things can turn around. Right now, I feel the country is almost at an all time low since I remember. There is a new elections coming up and some local elections right around the corner. Things ebb and flow. One can attempt to enact change but the process is neither easy nor one for fast results. As for the populace, I dont know. Reality TV is now the #1 format. People follow Survivor and Joe Millionaire more than the political debates (and I am here to tell you that the California debate was more surreal that reality TV). People read less and less, soaking in more and more. Hopefully, America will try to pick up the pieces. AFter 9/11, we had the ENTIRE world behind us, ready to give a helping hand and backing up 100%. It only took a little over a year to squander almost all good will toward this country. The perception of the United States from abroad is at an all time low, and for good reason. Sadly, the average American remains oblivious. Let's hope we can do something diplomatic in the near future... We have lost all semblance of dimplomacy and compromise and have virtually turned nation after nation away via our actions and policy (or lack of). Unfortunately, I think we will be paying for some of these decisions for years to come. None of this means that any of us are LESS American. It simply means the country is surely not heading in the right direction, and some of this following closely feel pretty disheartened by it all. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 You know, here is a college educated "NASCAR dad" who does get it. While I was in the USAF (1966-1970) , I realized the futility of the war in Viet Nam. Our government was afraid to wage the war that was necessary to win. When I got out I assisted in the organization of protests and demonstrations to stop my friends from getting killed and maimed in that futile effort. I told one Che wanna be that some day I would kill him because I knew that the war against one world socialism would not end with Vietnam. As I approach senior status my conviction to oppose sociaism has not waned. The current administration is ridiculed in Europe not because of what we do as tourists,rather, it does not fit the Gorbachev one world under socialism theory. Berlisconi in Italy is facing the same fate. Anyone to the right of The Social Democrats is an extremist. The Greens, re-dyed Reds, are gaining power and the USA will be truly isolated in the western world. Not because we have changed, rather, (thankfully) that we will not have changed. The majority of the US electorate has rejected Progressive socialism every time it has reared it's ugly head. Hillary care for instance and the loss of Congress by the Progressives. The US electorate are not dumb. Most who vote the moderate to conservative line are better informed than those who blindly vote for the Progressive Democrat "'cause Daddy done did" and Jesse told me to. The leftests who run the show care not for the poor and uneducated. They are as or more wealthy as those on the right. They want power. They want dependancy. They don't want a learned thinking population, they are so smart that they can do the thinking for them. The voter blocks that they control are the "useful idiots" that they plan on using to gain control and institute their one world under socialism plans. Two Quotes that would make better bumper stickers: "but as for me, give me liberty or give me death." Patrick Henry "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" Nathan Hale Rick Sorry if I offended anyone but after reading all this I had to put in my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Uh...does anyone care anymore that I didn't buy that tube amp? (sniff) I created a monster thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello: Again Kelly missed the explanation in my Posts. I tried to explain the orgin of the statement leading to the Creation of that Bumper sticker. My point was not to follow like robots. Apparently I was not clear enough. I also state that when we visit another Country we do not have to shout I am an American. BUT we do not have to deny Citizenship. If I visit another Country and am with a group that is behaving like idiots, I will stand up, state that I am an American and not all Americans are boorish, immature or capable of poor behaviour. As a part of being a member of the Honour Guard you are trained that evn though you are one person, your conduct leaves a lasting impression - to Americans and to Countries you visit. Being American not a right nor is it something that all the world to should become. Re-Read my Post. I would hope that what I stated did not go over people's heads. I did not state whether I believe a "pro-active" strike was supported or condemned. I do support treating a foreign vistor with respect and dignity, showing the positive side of America and its citizens. I would extend the same courtesy with which I would like to be treated if in another Country. If we fail, perhaps that is the impression that is remembered, or the population of America is judged by. We have poverty, racial and reigious divides. You name it, America is most likely guilty of it. We are far from perfect. However, in California's recall vote, democracy has been shown to work whether we as residents of other States agree with the process or the replacment elected Official But we stand up and fight for the rights that Our Bill of Rights, the Constitution and anyone that has served in the Armed Forces has bestowed on and to us. There are many things wrong in America. But if we have such a plethora of problems,why is it so hard to get people to excerise their right to vote? If more voters turned out changes can be made. Every vote does count. Last November, A Town Supervisor's race WAS decided by one (1) vote. Also the word liberal does not mean Democrat, Republican, Independent, etc.. Caring for and helping people in true need, taking care of the Environment, keeping in mind our future generations are part of being a liberal. And it may be noted, GaryMD has not posted anything to contradict my support for his statements. Having mood swings can be a side effect of Prednisone. So, I ask that you re-read my posts and you will find that we are on the same page. Lighten up, there really is no disagremeent. We are using the Enblish language whereupon what is stated is true, using different words that in their final definition, mean the same. Regarding the statistics, I am quite aware of all of them. I do not defend my Country blindly. I have seen the poor, people laying in pools of blood, taking theft reports, etc.. Most the exact statistics can be found in the National Institute of Justice Reports, The Bureau of Justice Statistics Report, N.C.I.C., and the FBI annual statistics Report. For the rest of any political debate, we each hold our views. That is not an issue here. Kelly, it seems as if you are taking this too personally and I know that you also mean well, our views for the most part fully agree. It would have been great if we had lived near each for high scool debates Better yet, have good both on the same team. Take Care JIM: sorry to hear that you didn't get the tube amplifier. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 When I logged onto this site this morning and saw 5 pages on this thread I thought - my god - this site is totally amp obsessed. Little did I know what awaited me and I have just spent about an hour reading the whole thing. As someone who is not American, and who has only visited America on holiday my take, for anyone who mightt be interested is as follows: America is not, actually all that different from many other countries. It is not even unique in wanting to be a role model / moral leader in the world. It is also far from unique in having feet of clay. Being an Englishman living in Greece and of Jewish origin I can merely compare the US to Greece, the UK, and potentially Israel. To take the last example first, Israel also had dreams of being the moral leader in the world - of being a shining example of what was possible in a democratic state. Little comment is required here but suffice to say things havent turned out the way Ben Gurion and the other founding members of the State of Israel had in mind. Few, I think today, would regard Israel as a model society. I had to smile at Kelly's denial of being a US citizen whilst in Italy. Whilst I know it was tongue in cheek I often find myself apologising on behalf of the UK whilst on holiday outside of Europe. Remember that the global power preceding the US was the UK (a mere 120 years ago the UK economy was still larger than the US). Even the US itself was a part of the British empire not all that long ago and your independence was from a very ill judged governing Britain. Then I look at Greece. It has been a while since Greece was the global leading nation (about 2500 years - the world's first democracy). For every problem you have in the US we have at least 2 problems here, although they are often different in nature. Somehow Greeks manage, at the same time, to be both highly critical of Greece and yet fiercely proud to be Greek. It is a paradox, yes, but one others seem to be more capable of dealing with than Americans (judging by the entries here). There are 2 things that do, currently, differentiate the US from others in a major way. The first is wealth. The US is still, obviously, the wealthiest country on Earth. the second is weaponary. The US is still the most highly armed country on Earth. Perhaps surprisingly, to me at least, the US does not seem to offer its citizens the highest standard of living on Earth (although measurement systems could be validly questioned), nor indeed, the safest environment to grow up in. Despite the above it does offer a high standard of living for those lucky enough to be successful in their chosen field and, indeed, a higher standard than any of the other countries I have given as examples. In summary I would say the following: Dont beat yourselves up simply because your country in not perfect, but, dont merely sit back and let your society drift into a downward spiral. If you want to take action to improve things then by all means do so - this is what democracy is all about. A word of warning though - try to avoid looking for a scapegoat in identifying what has gone wrong, especially another race, ethnic group, or generic imigrants. This has been tried before and historically has failed to produce any improvement, invariably making things far, far worse. Immigrants are a result of other factors in an economy, not a cause. Final note - socialism is not communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I just feel all that is being portrayed here is the Negative side of the USA !! Its not nearly as bad as its being Portrayed here. The problems listed are just about impossible to cure. I asked some specific questions and of coarse received absolutely no answers ! If the USA is so bad then what country has the perfect form of government and social perfection ?? Why is are country the place immigrants still love to make there new home ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Well said Max. Yes MB that is why capital punishment is needed. Some peolpe just don't get it. Jim, what amp are you going to purchase now? You can't give up on tubes that easily. Maybe Dean has something else to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Craig, I don't think any of the folks here critical of the US want to leave. I believe they're happy to live in a country where this kind of debate is allowed, and even encouraged! Getting all riled up is not only a right, but is a responsibility! Love It And Fix It! I'd wager even old kh loves the USofA as much as you! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Does Canada have Cowboys? Can we talk about religion now, I'm bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Religion - great idea - that should fan the flames nicely. OK - how about this... If Akunhaten had been better looking there would probably be no such thing as a monotheistic religion. I wonder if anyone could understand that statement? It is not quite as totally off the wall as you might think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Akhenaten, Pharoah of Egypt, 18th Dynasty. Monotheism existed well before this with the Hebrews, and since Joseph and Akhenaten were contemporaries, it is possible he was a mentor of Moses. Check it out -- I'm not making this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello: Max you have hit it. All of the Bumper Stickers are sound bytes, taken in the context the user wishes them to be taken. We can spend 87 billion Dollars, yet we cut education, truly needy may not be able to receive aid to bring them in as productive members of Society. There is much to be desired, but there is much more to be admired. Bumper stickers only portray a segment of thought. Catch phrases like "America - Love it or Leave it," or "it takes a village to raise a child" is what they are. Examined closely, "It Takes A Village To Raise A Child" need to be evaluated. The "Village" consists of Parents, Teachers, Spiritual Leaders if one believes, Neighbrs, Police Officers and Fire-fighters. Parents become more important if the child is home schooled. The aforementioned phrase may be dismissed and everything put on Parents, or on to Teachers - it bis not that easy, each mentioned plays a role in a child's life and thus teaches, "raising" a child. "America, Love it or Leave It" is even simpler to use out of context. It is part of an idea and an ideal. Working within the system, non-violent protests are a wy of showing that we care enough to want change. Voting, letters to the Editors of your newspaper, organizing block groups are all demonstrations of seeing a wrong and caring to make it right. If none of those apply, run for office yourself. If you are too apathetic toward making things better but still want to complain, one has the option of leaving. Otherwise help to improve the good while not contributing to ths bad. That makes the way toward a better society. So study the catch phrases, find their origin, but above it all - look at the number of people that want to come to America, that is its own phrase. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Well then lets see some loving it and fixing it rather then drag it through the dirt ! For every negative about are country there are many positives in my opinion. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 ---------------- On 10/9/2003 7:27:10 AM DeanG wrote: Akhenaten, Pharoah of Egypt, 18th Dynasty. Monotheism existed well before this with the Hebrews, and since Joseph and Akhenaten were contemporaries, it is possible he was a mentor of Moses. Check it out -- I'm not making this up. ---------------- No denying the existence of monotheism prior to Akhenaten, but, if it is indeed true that he was a mentor of Moses would we have had monotheism today without him. Its not a fully serious question - more shooting the breeze but I am as impressed as hell that you picked up on it so quickly. Next time I will try to be even more abstract. and yes Craig - there is plenty to admire in the US - enough, in fact, to allow its citizens to discuss and critisise the things that are not so wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Has anyone seen a soapbox around here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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