Squaker's just too abrasive on Klipschorn......

[cjgeraci]

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On 10/27/2004 7:19:28 PM meuge wrote:

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I didn't mean to come across as defensive.

Perhaps there is something in the Ref50 that makes the system bright. I wouldn't know as I have never heard it. I am using an Aragon preamp with my B&K amp, and it's smooth as silk, compared to an Adcom I auditioned, as well as the receiver I had previously used to power my RF-3IIs.

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My defensive comment was not directed at your post, and I did not take it that way. I actually had in mind some previous threads where "what's the best SS amp for my Klipsch" was discussed. As far as my experience, there may be something to the Ref 50 being bright because the only B&K setups I auditioned had the Reference preamps (or the 30). Its accurate that I cannot comment about running a B&K amp with a different preamp.

Again, the problem at issue could be a number of things; I just did not want him to discount the possibility that his preamp/amp choice was the culprit - at least at this point.

Carl.

[Dylanl]

Mine also sounded bright at 1st to me. Here are 3 things I did to fall in love: I did not read all the posts in detail so if I repeat sorry

1. Rope caulk both horns - very Cheap

2. Tube amp - not to bad 500.00

3. Give it time - your ears need to adjust these speakers are different than any other

[fini]

Maybe it's the music...

I disagree that Klipschorns are forgiving. Just the opposite, IMHO.

[Deang]

I agree, not very forgiving at all.

Dylan, the AK-3 Klipschorn uses the K-401 composite horn -- rope caulking isn't necessary.

Craig, I got your email asking about the false corners -- I just haven't had time to answer -- I'm completely buried at work right now.

Isn't this similiar to what you posted regarding your Heresies, which you addressed with the use of an equalizer(s). Yes? You seemed satisfied with this solution, why not apply it here? I'm not saying it's the ideal solution -- but it is a solution none-the-less.

Most of us here tend to eschew devices prone to interjecting even low level distortion into the signal chain -- which is then elevated to clearly audible and annoying levels by the horns. For most of us -- that means tube gear, Class A solid state amplifiers, or solid state amplifiers that don't pair up the transistors -- typically low powered types (60 watts or less). Higher powered solid state amplifiers can work well too, but they need to be of the highest caliber.

Your B&K combination is actually pretty good, and though partly responsible for some of the "steely" quality you are experiencing (see Leok's post) -- can't be blamed for all of it. In fact, it is a combination of all the things mentioned so far in this thread. I do take issue with criticism of the K-401 horn, which I personally think can sound very good.

For now, I say attenuate the horn's output using one of your equalizers. Hey, it doesn't cost anything, so it makes the most sense from a strictly practical stand point.

Next would be the simple "hand clap" test to see how "live" your room is. A strong echo would indicate some room treatment is in order.

Naturally, I'm going to say the next cost effective thing to do is upgrade the capacitors in your AK-3s. This won't attenuate the horn's output, but will smooth and clean things up considerably. The output might be able to be brought down 3db, but the AK-3 uses the T4A autotransformer as opposed to the T2A found in the Type A and Type AA -- and is already set on the #3 tap. Someone at Klipsch would have to answer this question, because I honestly don't know. At any rate, I can do this work if you're interested.

[Audio Flynn]

This reoccurring theme of too shrill heritage is amazing.

These SS amps being used are just not a well researched choice.

But it happens over and over again.

STOP the MADNESS!

SEll the speakers or get a tube amp.

[Q-Man]

I never heard anyone say that B&K's were bright, but then I never heard B&K equipment with Klipschorns.

Just listen to them for a while before you do anything. It could be that your not used to the bass horn sound and that is making you think that the midrange is too much. Once you get used to the sound, then we can suggest simple tweeks all the way up to replacing the whole top end.

Klipschorns are at their best in a room with carpet on the floor. They also begin to shine when you listen to them at a distance of 20 feet or more in front of them.

[TBrennan]

Flynn----I've heard plenty of Klipsch systems sounding good with SS amps. I totally reject the New Orthodoxy that states one must use tubes with horns. Nor do I hold with using amps as equalizers and in effect using an amp as an EQ is what many tube afficiandos are doing.

If someone doesn't like the sound of Klipsch midrange he can revoice the midrange by various means or simply find some speakers that have pleasing mids in the first place and not putz around.

[cjgeraci]

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On 10/28/2004 8:29:54 AM Q-Man wrote:

I never heard anyone say that B&K's were bright, but then I never heard B&K equipment with Klipschorns.

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Fish also had this experience, and one other forum member, the name of who escapes me. Its been discussed a few times in the HT section.

It is true, however, that the vast majority of B&K/Klipsch owners like the combo. Could just be our ears.

Carl.

[garymd]

The squakers on my khorns are very smooth. Not harsh at all. Maybe it's the tubes but I don't think so. They're also smoother since I switched to Deans A crossovers. My '80 corns are not nearly as laid back. Sometimes I wish they were. Probably time to update the crossovers.

[Daddy Dee]

Dean forgot to mention his old standby solution. Stuff a pair of socks in the midhorn.

[lynnm]

Born2RockU

A few questions for you.But first a couple of thoughts regarding the potential causes of excessively bright sound.

The first and most obvious cause is excessive output from the midrange driver. While that is possible I think the problem lies elsewhere.

Secondly your amplification may be designed with lower efficiency speakers in mind and the Klipschorns may not draw sufficient power to force the amps into their optimal operating range. That said there are other much less expensive factors/fixes to consider.

Excessive brightness can also be the result of a deficit in bass output thereby making the mids sound prominent as compared to the overall sound of the speaker.

Now the questions:

1) What are your room dimensions?

2) How widely spaced are your speakers?

3) Are you certain that your Khorns are wired in correct phase? If the horns were to be connected out of phase there would be a considerable degree of bass loss and the midhorns would sound brash not only because of their higher relative volume vis a vis the bass drivers but also because of increased intermodulation distortion.In addition imaging and soundstage would be poor.

An easy test is to reverse the connection on one speaker and observe the effect on the bass response.Proper phasing will be indicated by more powerful/cleaner bass. If reversing one connection results in poorer bass then the speakers were phased correctly to begin with. If the bass improves then the speakers were out of phase.

4) What source components are you using? ( Make/model)

5) Does your room have a lot of hard reflecting surfaces such as concrete block walls,painted drywall,wood panelling,large mirrors on the walls or large windows? Is the floor bare hardwood or is it carpeted? What do you have in the way of upholstery in the room?

6) Are your Khorns tightly sealed into their corners? It was some time after I first got my horns before I was able to seal them tightly into the corners and the overall improvement in smoothness and bass was astonishing.

7) Do you have any large pieces of upholstered furniture directly between the horns?This can cause problems with bass response,particularly if the upholstered piece is close to the speakers. Sofas are natural born bass traps.

8) What speakers had you used prior to buying your Khorns? If the speakers you had previously were inclined to be a little muted in the mids then the Khorns might well sound loud in the midrange by comparison.

Don't give up too easily.You've got a phenomal pair of speakers there and I suspect that with a little adjustment here and there you can get them singing without spending a lot of money.

[Audio Flynn]

Flynn----I've heard plenty of Klipsch systems sounding good with SS amps. I totally reject the New Orthodoxy that states one must use tubes with horns. Nor do I hold with using amps as equalizers and in effect using an amp as an EQ is what many tube afficiandos are doing.

If someone doesn't like the sound of Klipsch midrange he can revoice the midrange by various means or simply find some speakers that have pleasing mids in the first place and not putz around.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maybe if the source is very sound.

"BORN" is using a dvd player into SS amps and wonders why it is shrill.

I attend more of the LEOK theroy. If I paraphrase correctly.

1. It is not the voicing of the amps as much as it is low distortion at certain wattages.

2. And the horn will magnify the deficincies of jitter in a poor digital player

I have never heard a musical DVD player for less than $ 1200.

I like my Panasonic RP-91; but the cymbal hash is nasty and it alcks in detail.

Maybe the Sony 7000 series depending on the model year is reasonable.

[Frzninvt]

Audio Flynn is right on the money about using a DVD player to playback through SS gear, I have yet to hear a DVD player that does not make standard CD's harsh and edgy sounding no matter what they cost.

[Chris Robinson]

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On 10/28/2004 11:10:33 AM Audio Flynn wrote:

I have never heard a musical DVD player for less than $ 1200.

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I really love my Tjoe Njoeb 4000 with the upsampling kit. It is very, very smooth and musical in the midrange, precisely the place that Born2 is complaining about.

As far as a nice sounding DVD player, though, the DVD963SA by Philips is quite pleasing with the PS cap upgraded to a Black Gate. For $250 or so, it's a very nice deal. The upsampling smooths out some rough recordings.

Fundamentally, though, I would agree with your assessment. DVD players are not the most musical of decks for CD playback.

An inexpensive way for Born2 to experiment is to get one of those $30 Tripath amps (see recent thread) and insert it into the chain. If there is a distortion problem in the B&K amp, he'll hear it right away because the Tripath operates at a much lower distortion level at low power.

[Audio Flynn]

The Panasonic RP-91 has an audio only function that turns off the video nasties.

I have never put it side by side in the 2 channel rig to compare tot he MSB DAC with upsampling; but have thought about buying a second one to do so.

It would have to still have an outborad DAC; I would use the RP-91 for the DVD-A playback.

LEOK could maybe consider doing a P6D tripath amp 'roadshow' like Mark Deneen is doing with the Blueberry so some people could expeience this very clean amp technology.

[J.4knee]

OK, I think it is your ears/brain that make this seem true. I use a SS DVD/SACD/DVDA player into a SS amp and have no shrill sounding issues. Actually it seems warmer than my CD Player. I don't doubt that some combo's do sound shrill but absent any imperial test data measured by something other than human ears it is an anecdotal claim in general. I believe the human brain conjures up a lot of sonic imagery that lulls us into thinking we hear things we dont.

[Audio Flynn]

jnee;

If you are all dvd and ss; and feel your system sounds like live instruments in a nearfield setting; you are truly blessed.

Many of us are not that fortunate.

[edwinr]

Born2RockU. Any high resolution loudspeaker, no matter what brand or type is going to take some adjustments and finetuning before you get the best out of it. Number one priority is to set the Klipschorns up in your room and listen for a while. Maybe for a few weeks. This is important. Because the things that you now say are issues, may very well become attributes once you have adjusted to the new sound.

Don't start chopping and changing your equipment at the moment. Once you have become accustomed to the sound, then you can make a list of what you like and don't like about the sound you are getting. When you finally start 'tweaking', you don't want to lose the good things about the sound, you only want to finetune the bad things out.

There are a number of quick fixes that don't cost much, like room treatments. Other fixes are more expensive and may require a cross-over upgrade to get the sound you want. There is some very good advice in this thread.

Just for your information, my Klipschorns have impressed me with their high resolution and incredible smoothness in the mid range... whether driven by tubes or solid state. So there's no reason you can't get the same sound.

[Rudy81]

I just played around with the settings on my ALK's and the new Khorns.

I had less attenuation from my Belles set due to my HT setup. I changed the settings to attenuate the squaker, what Al calls normal, and it really smoothes out the forward sound of the mids.

The other item I have noticed is that the bass is less punchy than my Belles or La Scalas. However, the Belles are in a tuned room of smaller dimensions. The Khorns are in a bare room and are not sealed properly to the walls. I hope that once I get them to their final location and seal the bass bins properly I will get the bass I expect.

Good luck with your Khorns.

[artto]

It's not the speaker.

It's any one of, or all of the following:

The recording.

The equipment connected to the speaker.

And last, but not least, the room itself.

The Klipschorn is, as a matter of fact, more intimately tied to the room itself, more than any other speaker ever made. It will expose any and all defective acoustical properties of your room as well as the properties of anything connected before it. It's not for everyone. And its certainly not for every room. It designed to take advantage of certain natural properties of the room. If those properties are deficient or less than ideal, so will be the performance of the speaker.

If you want to see what is required to bring the best out of a Khorn may I suggest:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=28220&sessionID={009C7C06-A9DC-409F-BBD7-B26D94B23F6A}

There are a number of opinions of visits to this room posted. No one, musicians, lay persons, audiophiles, whatever, who has ever visited this room has ever mentioned anything about midrange brashness or harshness other than when it was apparent from a recording, not the playback system.