seti Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I know there are alot of people here that build there own amps and recondition amps so I have a question just out of curiosity. What makes an amp truly worth alot of money say 8$K or more just to pick a figure? I can understand the electronluv.com gear selling for so much because it is very original and are sculptures as well as amplifiers but what about the high dollar amps what makes them worth so much? Parts? Labor? Snakeoil?. The www.wavelengthaudio.com/pr_info.html wavelength or Lamm gear look super simple and small but what maked an amp like that worth over $10K? Could the parts possibly cost that much? Dipped in gold? Blessed by the pope? Owning some of the more esoteric gear is out of the question for me but for those of you with more exposure to "sterophile" priced gear what is your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I often wonder the same thing. I am not sure. I find that i tend to spend all my spare change on hifi gear. Some of the components have been a real improvement and some have been market driven hype IMHO. I would like to try Thor or some of the other big bucks names, but until 10 years or so rolls around (buy that time mabe the used market will meet my budget) I don't see that happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 7:27:30 AM seti wrote: I know there are alot of people here that build there own amps and recondition amps so I have a question just out of curiosity. What makes an amp truly worth alot of money say 8$K or more just to pick a figure? I can understand the electronluv.com gear selling for so much because it is very original and are sculptures as well as amplifiers but what about the high dollar amps what makes them worth so much? Parts? Labor? Snakeoil?. The www.wavelengthaudio.com/pr_info.html wavelength or Lamm gear look super simple and small but what maked an amp like that worth over $10K? Could the parts possibly cost that much? Dipped in gold? Blessed by the pope? Owning some of the more esoteric gear is out of the question for me but for those of you with more exposure to "sterophile" priced gear what is your opinion? ---------------- The companies owner or owners live in multi million dollar homes them payment aren't cheap It does cost a boat load of money for product development especially on the cosmetic side of things which is where a good portion of the cost is in many high dollar designs. I really think there is nothing truly "NEW" in tube audio were all working off the shirt tales the pioneers of the hay day of tube audio. Designers today just have much tighter tolerance and quality parts to work with. Also quality Iron cost bucks. I think the biggest mistake designers make today it to much of the "re-invent the wheel" approach adding gadgets and using obscure tubes to draw them apart from there competitors and allow them the ego boost of look I really made something different. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Royster; Did you end up with the VTL monoblocks? I know you were interested in them. They may not be beauty queens and seeing all the tubes is nice but you don't listen with your eyes and I am sure they sound GREAT! Let us know how you like them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 "The www.wavelengthaudio.com/pr_info.html wavelength or Lamm gear look super simple and small but what maked an amp like that worth over $10K?" The answer is quite simple, and plainly obvious -- they are ripping people off. People should do some homework before parting with their money, and it doesn't hurt to use some common sense too. It's not just the high dollar stuff, but the more affordable stuff as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Since the late 1980s the prices have risen dramatically. Status. Nothing has really been reinvented. Some fine tuning. But prices have simply gone through the roof and put them out of reach of the even above average audiophile. I would love to hear how they truly justify the prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 8:03:09 AM Cal Blacksmith wrote: Royster; Did you end up with the VTL monoblocks? I know you were interested in them. They may not be beauty queens and seeing all the tubes is nice but you don't listen with your eyes and I am sure they sound GREAT! Let us know how you like them! ---------------- yes, I sent the check out this A.M. I am looking forward to checking them out. Craig is going to recap them. They did not need it, but you how that tinker/tweak bug bites us. I am going to list my Canary Audio stuff on Audiogon in the next few weeks. It has been great but I have the urge to try something else. Last time (with the Canary Purchase) I was happy, but have disapointed several times prior. thinking of maybe a Juicymusic Xtream. How is the longhorn working? Hope you like it. Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Roy, What Canary stuff do you have? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 8:29:59 AM dodger wrote: I would love to hear how they truly justify the prices. ---------------- Win, this is an interesting question that I've wondered about myself. Perhaps the answer is (to the seller) that if people buy it, it's justified. To me, it's simply not a serious consideration. To me it's a "go figure" question that some folks take such things seriously. Excessive steel on amps is the same as cable piers and battery powered interconnects. I actually think better of high dollar Rolex watches, they look so cool, than this kind of audio gear. However, my Wal-Mart quartz Casio nerd watch at least matches the accuracy of the finest Rolex. It works for me. (BTW, anyone who wants to give me a Rolex for Christmas is welcome to do so, and it's my preference over an amp of the same price). Look what I can save you on shipping! Hopefully I'm not being self righteous about it, but even if I had, say $6K to spend on a preamp, I think I'd still buy my Peach all over again. What a heck of a sweet spot value is this? True enough! To me, aside from music that sounds so good it's bliss, which is a joy... part of my enjoyment comes from NOT spending a mega bucks to get that sound. In fact, there have been lots of smiles on this forum every time (and it is a common occurance) someone posts on having observed the indignation of a buddy at hearing the forum member's "budget" system that beat the socks off the buddy's megabucks system. Sometimes I feel like the hayseed, redneck, shade tree mechanic whose old Dodge 440 Magnum just beat (or matched) a Corvette off the line. Yep, I was chewing on a broom straw when that city feller asked me if I was man enough to race my POS Dodge. I just laugh all the way to the sweet spot in my listening room. Maybe a new tagline is in order... Klipsch Nerds Unite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 7:53:19 AM NOSValves wrote: The companies owner or owners live in multi million dollar homes them payment aren't cheap It does cost a boat load of money for product development especially on the cosmetic side of things which is where a good portion of the cost is in many high dollar designs. I really think there is nothing truly "NEW" in tube audio were all working off the shirt tales the pioneers of the hay day of tube audio. Designers today just have much tighter tolerance and quality parts to work with. Also quality Iron cost bucks. I think the biggest mistake designers make today it to much of the "re-invent the wheel" approach adding gadgets and using obscure tubes to draw them apart from there competitors and allow them the ego boost of look I really made something different. Craig ---------------- Vladimir Lamm still lives in a very small townhouse in Brooklyn and work in his basement. I know for a fact the his supplier charges him $4k for a pair of output transformers and he uses a dealer network so he could probably sell his amps direct and cut the retail costs down. But then he'd need to invest in marketing and that's something that his 3 people company couldn't spend time on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 This photo was taken in the Stereophile show here in NYC. We were sharing a suite with Lamm and were using the best sounding type of Khorns - a 1956 VITAVOX CN-191. They sounded so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 9:34:17 AM NOSValves wrote: Roy, What Canary stuff do you have? Craig ---------------- Craig, I have the CA-801L pre amp and 801P power supply combo. It is a 2 chassis dual mono pre amd power supply. 2 volume controls, 2 selectors ect. great pre, I love it but am thining it's time to try something else (will most likely kick myself). A CA-301 amp (22 watts of 300B power per channel) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Dean wrote - The answer is quite simple, and plainly obvious -- they are ripping people off. People should do some homework before parting with their money, and it doesn't hurt to use some common sense too. It's not just the high dollar stuff, but the more affordable stuff as well. I absolutely couldn't agree more. I'm not in this hobby a lot of money and don't plan to be. In the last couple years I've read and read and auditioned and picked the brains of audiophiles and dealers. I have many hobbies, from cars, to guns, to boats, to climbing, and I'll tell you what... audio/stereo/home theater (whatever you want to call it) is the biggest rip off in the marketplace. The prices for other than base level equipment are out of this world. $10,000 for an amp - gimme a f'in break. $40-50,000 speakers - say what? Hell, I've managed to put together a killer system for $5,000 and the stuff's new. Maybe you guys can sit down and pick it apart, but for my money it sounds just fine. When I win the multi-million lottery and have money to blow, maybe I'll upgrade... naw, I won't; it still wouldn't pay. That's just me though, you guys spend it if ya got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 Thanks at least I wasn't the only one wondering what warranted the price. I wasn't accusing Lamm or Wavelength of price gouging I was truly curious as to what warranted spending $10k plus on amps. If they spend a majority of the price on parts and design thats fine but I doubt everyone does that. Hmm high overhead high price sometimes. I have been wanting to do an experiment you know come up with a cheap to make audiophile gadget and price it in the stratosphere just to see if anyone would pay. My theory is if you price it they will pay and probably thank you for it lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ---------------- On 5/12/2005 9:35:05 AM Daddy Dee wrote: I actually think better of high dollar Rolex watches, they look so cool, than this kind of audio gear. However, my Wal-Mart quartz Casio nerd watch at least matches the accuracy of the finest Rolex. It works for me. (BTW, anyone who wants to give me a Rolex for Christmas is welcome to do so, and it's my preference over an amp of the same price). Look what I can save you on shipping! ---------------- Well I think that up to a point, putting in more money will get you an improvement. But this obeys the laws of diminishing returns after that point - the more each upgrade costs, the less then improvement becomes. I used to have a Casio watch, and I can tell you they don't keep time that well. On the other hand, my Seiko Kinetic watch, both looks good and is accurate to around 1.5-2 seconds/month. I doubt that much improvement can be made over that, and the watch only cost me about $200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Two non-audio examples that might help to explain it. My sister wanted to sell a car in 1977. She originally listed it for 1,200 (If I recall correctly). No sale. Then she listed it at $2,500. She sold it after being talked 'down' to $2,200. Same car. I own a property that has a 1500 sq. ft. house and a garage apt. I rent the house and live in the apartment because it pays the mortgage note. When the last renters moved out in November, I listed the house for $475/mo (the mortgage payment). Very few calls and no takers. Recalling my sister's success, after 3 weeks I listed it for $600. It was rented within three days. Same house. Maybe they thought it was better??? However, the mortgage note is still on the renters and I squirrel the extra $125/mo away for play money. The same might be said for audio. I got an incredible deal on used Khorns, but I would buy them at <=2500. I have about $1100 or so in my Scott 355/208 combo, and I could have done much better soundwise/bucks spent, but it does sound very good. Forrest (in search of a Thebesian $50 Marantz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Why do college textbooks cost so much? It is in many ways the same question as the case of the $15,000 amplifier. The answer is you have toi subsidize the designer/manufacturer/author/publisher. You don't always get what you pay for, but the added price is insurance that the product will still be available. "Rip off" is in the eye of the beholder (or in our case, the payor), I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Overpriced or not, I still like Gordon Rankin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I also think that the pricing of a number of high end turntables isn't all that unfair..Brinkmann and SME tables may be in the $15,000 range, but they are put together like gigantice swiss watches. That type of high end, high tolerance, manufacturing can't be, and IMO opinion shouldn't be, cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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