meuge Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I hear this argument on a weekly basis, if not more often... even sometimes from people who should know better. A few days ago, someone showed me a survey which found that >90% of those asked think that doctors are overpaid. When asked what is a fair salary a doctor should make, an overwhelming number of Americans thought that $80'000/year is the "fair" figure. Well, if they all say it, then it must be true right? Well... I did a little research, utilizing some rudimentary approximations of tax law and other figures, relating to getting a degree and practicing medicine in the state of New York. Disclaimer: I will be using the article "he", simply because it's faster to type... not because I have anything against women in medicine. Now we'll be talking about a specialist, seeking a career in non-surgical cardiology. I know a bit more about this specialty, since it's probably going to be my first choice. For those who are not familiar with the way the medical education proceeds, here's a recap: 1) 4 years of college 2) 4 years of medical school 3) 3 years of residency - after this is when an internist and family practice physicians take their license exams 4) 2-5 years of fellowship - this is where the specialists get their training... usually 2-3 years, with the 4-5 years reserved for cardiothoracic and neuro-surgery. Let's begin by assuming that a regular student loan will appreciate to 260% of the principal over a period of 20 years (a figure given to me by my friend who is an analyst at a major bank). College - $30k/year = $120k x2.6 = $312k Medical school - $50k/year = $200k x2.6 = $520k Sub-total = $832k/20years = ~$3400/month after graduating medical school (if paying even payments) ------------------------------------------------ Resident (1st year) makes $50k After taxes, (25%), he is left with $37.5k.... so he is forced to pay the $1000/month minimum payments, leaving him with $30k, and with an $820k debt at the end of the year Resident (2nd year) makes $60k After taxes, (27.5%), he is left with $43.5k and again he pays the $1000/month minimum payments, leaving him with $31.5k and a $808k debt Resident (3rd year) makes $80k After taxes, (32.5%), he is left with $40.5k and AGAIN he pays the $1000/month minimum payments, leaving him with $28.5k and a debt of $796kHmmm - 3rd year after medical school and he makes the equivalent of $35k/year (35k - taxes = 28.5) Fellow (3rd year) makes $150k After taxes and loans, he now makes $50.7k/year... the equivalent of $62.5k/year before taxes. In New York City, a subway booth clerk will receive upwards of $60k/year + monstrous benefits after 10-15 years on the job. So after 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and 3 years of fellowship, this doctor, who is now at least 32 years old, and now has a license, makes the equivalent of what a subway booth clerk makes after spending all that time after high school selling tokens. ------------------------------------------------- I'd love to hear your take on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 You forgot malpractice insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 ---------------- On 6/14/2005 7:19:12 PM Klipschfoot wrote: You forgot malpractice insurance. ---------------- Thankfully, it doesn't apply until one practices under one's own license. If residents had to pay for malpractice insurance, they'd be homeless. Oh, and speaking of that, New York State recently raised the minimum salary a resident can receive, because they found that many of them were living below the poverty level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 My Grandfather was a general practitioner in a small town in Upstate NY for 30 plus years. At one point he had delivered 65% of the students in the local elementary, middle and high schools. He practiced out of his house 3 days a week and made house calls the other 3days. Sunday was limited to church, fishing, and emergencies. That would be impossible now a day. The amount of technology, knowledge and cost to operate on that small scale would be impossible. Many things that would have killed you 15 years ago can now be treated relatively easily so you end of dying of something else. We live longer and that has a cost to all of us. Its a hell of a lot of hard work to be come a doctor and as you point out, even after you make it, its not exactly easy street. You could always switch to plastic surgery and move to LA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 you are probably right about the actual doctors pay, however i think that most people associate a doctors pay with a hospital bill and i would challange you to justify there charges, i recently read an article where when a hospital buys a piece of equ9ipment for use in surgery that instrument is paid for with the first 6 uses, 6.00 for an asperin and 12.00 for a bandaid with wires hanging off it are figures i was charged personally. it cost 530.00 for my daughter to have 3 stitches in her arm from a dog bite. in and out in less than an hour and this was at a so called not for profit hospital, the general practicioner is not the problem, its the so called specialists, hospitals, and the crooked doctors that want to charge for bogus tests, and require excess visits instead of deal with the problem. doctors and hospitals should be paid the same way as any one else performance based pay fix the problem then get paid misdiagnose and play games to inflate your bottom line you should get nothing. if i were hired to build a house and i built a garage instead i dontt think i would get paid just my opinion Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I do not think doctors are overpaid. Some contributing factors to my opinion, I know how hard these people study and train. The base of knowledge that they must acquire in medical school is enormous. After that, residents work ungodly hours to gain experience in the real world of treatment. In addition to that, their burden of responsibility is huge. Sure, they get paid big bucks, but how many people work in a job where making a mistake can kill someone? I want docs to be well compensated. Does anyone think our health care would improve if doctors were paid less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Meuge, I've read the $80k figure before. In the same article (must have been People magazine, several years ago) many people claimed that doctors are the reason for high health care costs. The article had an excellent quote that I wish I could reproduce but something like "No, my fellow Americans, its not doctors. Its your smoking, your drinking. Its you waiting for 10 minutes in a parking lot rather than walk 50 extra feet. Its your cheesburger diets and lack of exercise." Doctor's salaries have been driven down in the past 5-10 years too, from what I understand. I truly feel for anyone who wants to be a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I am a type 1 Diabetic and I can answer this in one word or less. NO!!!! My endocrinologist stays on top my condition all the time. Aside from what I do to maintain good control I attribute a significant portion of my success to him. I can call him anytime, E-mail him or page him day night weekday weekend. He is definitely not overpaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Maybe the colleges are over paid. My doctor charges me 80 dollars a wack to take my blood pressure. That's it I could do that at home. If I am in serious need of help I will go to the emergency room. So really I dont' even know if I need a personal doctor. They are a real blessing though when you need them. Priceless! But it's usually the doc in the hospital that's really help to me. One thing though I noticed about local Docs around here is they are very busy people, and usually don't have the time to enjoy their money like alot of people think. Especially the Docs at the hospital who work around the clock into the wee hours of the night. Now they deserve the dough. Who knows maybe I shouldn't of even commented at all. But 80 dollars to take my blood pressure is a bit steep in any country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 There are ways to cut the college costs. I'm sure those costs don't apply to every student. My kids will be going to a community college for the first two years. IF and ONLY IF they continue to be interested and show me that they have the responsibility to go, will I send them to a university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.cherry Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 doctors are not over paid pro athletes on the other hand are way over paid imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted June 14, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2005 From my limited experience with doctors/hospitals, IMO, it's the nurses who are SORELY underpaid. During my entire pregnancy, I saw nurses probably 95% of my visits versus actual time with doctors. I was in labor for 12 hours at the hospital, and the nurses were contantly with me. I only saw the doctor at the exact time of delivery, then not again until late the next day. The nurses...there all the time. At my beck and call all the time. I don't know how they do it. Granted, if something were to go wrong, the doctor is absolutely necessary. So I'm not saying they are overpaid at all. They shoulder the ultimate responsibility. When you go to the doctor for something, how long do you actually see the doctor? Even my latest trip to the dentist... The oral hygenist did EVERYTHING. The dentist came in when she was done, said "looks good" and off he went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Colleges = Yes, overpaid. A professor is judged not by what he/she teaches but yet how much they've been published and how many students they can attract to the school. Hospitals = It's not only the pay for the doctors, nurses (if you actually get to see one), even the guy that fills your bucket full of ice-chips at 3am; but it's also the people running the ***'s, PPO's and all that that have people investing money in the hospital that want to see a profit. They all have their hand in the till too (Geeez, and just applied for a job at a few such places ). Doctors = Not overpaid, for all the garbage they have to go through, especially the G.O.M.E.R.S. (Get Out of My Emergency Room). I remember profusely appologizing to the doctor that took out my appendix. It was 10pm and raining very hard. I'm stretched out on a gurny and he comes in soaked from the parking lot. It was during the Elite Eight of college basketball and Xavier was in it (they lost). I know that's what he was watching at home. Nurses = Don't know too many that don't think their Gods or wannabe Doctors. I know, my mother was one and she used to bad mouth the Nurse's Aid's constantly. When I worked for a court reporting firm I saw many a Curiculum Vitaes cross my hands from doctors, nary short of 100 pages long. The last time I went in for a checkup an aide came in and took my vitals and I sat in a near empty examination room for 20 minutes. He came in in a rush, talked to me and poked and prodded for about 5 minutes and we were done. And I have the same thing that J4knee has. But that's the PPO cracking the whip demanding that the doc see XXX number of patients a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I'll qualify my statement even further; try needing a Doctor involved in a significant portion of your life on some level most of the time and I think you will see a different view if you think Doctors are overpaid. Then you begin to see the equation from the side I look at. Granted I have had a shmuck or two over the last 15 years but the Doc I have had for the past 10 years has made a significant improvement in my overall health. This guy left a position as the director of Internal Medicine and Director of QA for the Clinic he was at for private practice, largely due to ineffective practices forced by HMOs. He was required to maintain a patient load of 2500 diabetics at the clinic. He made a pretty impressive salary there in fact took a pretty good pay cut for his private practice venture. This guy dual specialized because HMOs would not let him function as a primary care physician for his diabetic patients. Whatever his salary is he earned it. My time during my visits with him ranges from 20 to 30 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 ---------------- On 6/14/2005 7:08:45 PM meuge wrote: Let's begin by assuming that a regular student loan will appreciate to 260% of the principal over a period of 20 years (a figure given to me by my friend who is an analyst at a major bank). College - $30k/year = $120k x2.6 = $312k Medical school - $50k/year = $200k x2.6 = $520k Sub-total = $832k/ 20years = ~ $3400/month after graduating medical school (if paying even payments) ------------------------------------------------- I'd love to hear your take on this. ---------------- Makes me glad I went and got a software engineering/computer science degree instead! At the age of 35, all my student loans are paid for and am probably making more money than many of the doctors and lawyers in this area. And on top of that, my company is paying for my master's degree, plus any certifications that I choose to pursue (such as Microsoft Certified Solution Developer). As long as there are computers, they will need programmers. And as long as I can stay on top of the technology, I am golden! (And having a security clearance certainly helps as well. Despite all that offshoring business, they cannot offshore government classified work) A good doctor is worth his weight in gold. Some of the long hours they put in, all the Bull$#!+ they have to go through with the ***'s and the such, and so forth. It sounds glamorous on TV (after all, who has not seen at least one episode of E.R?), but I bet it is not easy work. Despite all the work and such, I can also certainly see how being a doctor can be rewarding. I only get a very small taste of it from being in the ski patrol as a first responder, with the medical training that goes along with it. Nothing like showing up and seeing a card and a bag of Jelly-Belly jelly beans taped to your locker door from a very grateful lady that you took down off the hill and cared for the previous weekend (it has happened to me!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 ---------------- On 6/14/2005 9:20:52 PM Amy Unger wrote: Even my latest trip to the dentist... The oral hygenist did EVERYTHING. ---------------- Make sure fini gets her number! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted June 14, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2005 ---------------- On 6/14/2005 9:31:55 PM Tom Blasing wrote: nurses (if you actually get to see one) --------------- Yes, in most hospitals, nurses are understaffed and overworked. It's a problem. Seems most just go on to become doctors. They might as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted June 14, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2005 ---------------- On 6/14/2005 9:44:55 PM bkrop wrote: ---------------- On 6/14/2005 9:20:52 PM Amy Unger wrote: Even my latest trip to the dentist... The oral hygenist did EVERYTHING. ---------------- Make sure fini gets her number! ---------------- LOL, sorry, that's what I get for being politically correct. Let me rephrase... the DENTAL ASSISTANT did everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Well, I have to say one thing. Everyone I know (with the exception of a very very small few) had mommy and daddy pay for all of their college. I am not saying Doctors are overpaid (because they aren't because they do a good service), but I think basing your argument on those numbers alone is a little weak due to the fact that very very few people can take on that kind of debt these days with out any federal grants, scholarships, and help from mommy and daddy, etc.... Best, George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Doctors only practice medicine, token booth clerks really sell the tokens. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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