Back To The K77s

[NOSValves]

I installed yesterday and I haven't had enough seat time. I was using the BEC upgraded magnet K77M upon switching I heard no night and day difference but I was just listening to some classic rock FM stuff. I did listen to a few tracks on SACD with these my first inpression is again not a earth shattering difference but there is something there. No MONO comparisons here. It takes me weeks to decide or put a handle on things.

I'll say this the fit finish and build quality is excellent if there is any improvement for $150 this is a no brainer.

Craig

[jwc]

Yep just what I've said again and again. Priced right, durable, great support, drop in replacement. You get what you pay for. Definately not overpriced.

[Tony Reed]

Those folks who got the to hear the Jubilees couldn't quit drooling over the sound. For crying out loud the thing is basically a modified Klipschorn!

IMO, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Tony

[seti]

Those folks who got the to hear the Jubilees couldn't quit drooling over the sound. For crying out loud the thing is basically a modified Klipschorn!

IMO, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Tony

I won't quit drooling over the Jubilee till I have my own.

[Seadog]

Just a thought regarding tweeking Heritage and being faithful to the Klipsch sound.

Klispch went to the K79 tweeter when the Cornwall II was introduced. IMO the K79 is a better sounding tweeter than the K77, more musical and smoother with more detail. This does not mean that the Cornwall II does not have the Klipsch sound. It still has very much the Klipsch sound, just a little different than the original <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall.

The K79 was not an option for the Khorn, Lascala, Belle because it could not keep up with a 104dB speaker. If the K79 could have worked in these speakers, would Klipsch have used it there also? (IMO, very likely yes).

[cjgeraci]

A further thought about the Klipsch "sound." In contemplating a tweeter upgrade to my Belles, I considered the Beyma and JBL alternatives. After reading reviews and talking to owners of those tweeters, I decided against those options. Not because the Beymas and the JBLs are not equal or maybe even superior in some respects to Bob's new tweeter. But, because adding those tweeters would likely significantly alter my Belles' sonic signature, I opted against those choices. In other words, smooth and detailed, but my Belles would sound drastically different than with any models of the K77s I have tried.

If I had the extra funds to buy (and try) the Beymas and JBLs, I would have. Ultimately, I made an educated decision based on my available information.

Not so with the Eminence driver. In my opinion, the Eminence driver Bob is using retains the Klipsch "sound," and it is at least in the ballpark, sound signature-wise to the K-77.

My desire to keep remnants of the Klipsch sound was also a factor in my choice of the OEM K55s for my ALK Trachorn mod, and I am pleased with the results (and that decision).

Carl.

[D-MAN]

I think that CHANGE is preferred by almost everyone.

That's why some prefer the Jubilee over the Khorn IMO. CHANGE for CHANGE sake. Not better. DIFFERENT. More choice, the enticing siren of desire and that's the allure. The ALLURE of CHANGE .

For example, the specs of the Jubilee are not very much different - same (approx) overall throat size, same overall Fc (but not quite the LF response), same overall size (maybe). What the Jubilee gains from its horizontal folding (Fhc), it loses in its overall channel length (LF response), and what the Khorn gains from its longer path length, it loses from its folding. Sort of a wash, yet the differences in performance are enough for one to employ some personal preference. Sort of like tubes vs. SS, it boils down to a personal PREFERENCE.

What makes the Jubilee actually different (aside from higher upper frequency corner)? It's dispersion characteristics and secondly, the possibility of different placements (but let's be real - its GOING to end up in the corner ANYWAY).

Nothing to actually drool over. How much of it is simply in their heads?

It's the CHANGE, man - the CHANGE.

DM

[garymd]

Not so with the Eminence driver. In my opinion, the Eminence driver Bob is using retains the Klipsch "sound," and it is at least in the ballpark, sound signature-wise to the K-77.

This makes me wonder if I have hearing problems because to me, these tweeters sound nothing like the K77s and significantly changed the sound of my Khorns.

[NOSValves]

Not so with the Eminence driver. In my opinion, the Eminence driver Bob is using retains the Klipsch "sound," and it is at least in the ballpark, sound signature-wise to the K-77.

This makes me wonder if I have hearing problems because to me, these tweeters sound nothing like the K77s and significantly changed the sound of my Khorns.

It's official Gary you have achieved deafness []

I'm still listening........no big jaw drop yet.

[seti]

The Jubilee is a 2 way. It had an electronic crossover.The crossover employeed time delay which Roy says is necessary. These are a couple significant differences.

Perhaps we can do a comparison between khorn and jubilee in Hope? Could be fun.

[Deang]

Those folks who got the to hear the Jubilees couldn't quit drooling over the sound. For crying out loud the thing is basically a modified Klipschorn!

IMO, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Tony

Read the JAES paper by R. Delgado and PK, and then come back and tell me what the design goals of the Jubilee were and why. Then look at the speaker again and see what they did. Also notice what is missing. They could have used any of the Heritage horns and made it a three way -- but they didn't. Look, if you take a Klipschorn and LaScala to the top of a building, tap them three times with PK's slide rule, push them off the edge, and then run downstairs to the sidewalk -- you will see a Jubilee. So, "better" performing horns for both the top and bottom -- and a 2" exit driver to boot. You know better than most what PK's desire was for the Jubilee. Of course, most here don't have the luxury of owning those bass bins, so we do the best we can with what we have available to us (and what we can afford). If I'm going to take heat for modifying my Klipschorns than I say the Jubilee is the ultimate blasphemy. How dare PK mess with the Heritage sound! Good Lord, it's nonsensical.

Now as far as my other post goes, it was really triggered by Craig's post, not Gary's. I think it's great that Gary held off with an opinion and came back with his thoughts after taking his time with the tweeters. My point is simply this: Always move the speakers forward. Better components make for a better speaker. However, like others have pointed out, you then have to tweak to taste. So, if for example you have a better performing tweeter, but it sounds too hot, then you get some quality attenuators like Al's. You don't go backwards in order to accomodate less than stellar recordings. All this does is rob you of the even better sound you get when using good recordings. We want the recordings themselves to be the weak link -- not the speakers. Now sure, this is just my opinion, and though I know it's hard to believe -- I'm not as dogmatic as you might think. O.K., well never mind, I'll never get away with that one.

I agree that most of the improvements and mods are incremental. However, add them all up and you have a seriously good sounding speaker, one that it my opinion far surpasses the stock configuration. Sorry.

[DRBILL]

I have a complaint about the BEC tweeter. I'm going to have to trash perhaps 10% of my CDs. The original tweeters let poorly recorded material sound passable. And friends, there is a lot of it out there and even the best lables slip us a few. Bob's tweeter makes a bad recording sound like a bad recording. And as we play through our libraries, I expect Bob will get a lot of grief on that account.

I saved all my parts. They are carefully boxed and labled. I can return to 100% Klipsch in less than an hour. I don't expect to have to do it.

This has been an interesting thread. Let's do it again, sometime.

DRBILL

[D-MAN]

Seti, yes, agreed, but that also is a change ot overall sound (a more expensive one, too). Not a difference between the bass horns which I was attempting to stress, evidently badly, so I appologize.

IMO, anyone who really wants to can change the Khorn into a completely different sounding animal, too, by changing the crossovers, drivers and horns - is it then still a Khorn? Most of us would say so, I think. That's sort of the point I am trying to make.

There REALLY isn't a high degree of difference in performance between the Jubilee and the Khorn BASS BINS... what you gain with one approach is balanced by what you lose. They are only different, one is not so totally fabulous in response that it totally eclipses the other design. The differences are actually more subtle.

I cannot imagine a technical reason for all of the "gushing" we hear about the Jubilee: My horn crosses over at 600Hz, and uses a passive ES crossover, and only has one midrange horn on top... I imagine that it really sounds very much like a Jubilee, except it probably has more low bass... a smaller footprint, too. But I don't REALLY know for a fact. Who knows? We are all in an equal position - you haven't heard mine, and I haven't heard the Jubilee setup as you did. So we cannot make a literal comparison.

But I would take it with a grain of salt because of the psychological factors involved with the different choices resulting from "change" (i.e, difference).

DM

[NOSValves]

I agree that most of the improvements and mods are incremental. However, add them all up and you have a seriously good sounding speaker, one that it my opinion far surpasses the stock configuration. Sorry.

So a stock pair of Klipschhorns are not a seriously good sounding speaker? If they are seriously good sounding speaker but just to a lessor degree would you say they are 50% good sounding or 95% ???

Craig

[Chicago_Pete]

Just finished installing my pair of Bob C tweeters. I think they sound great. I'M not up on all the audiophile lingo but if I were pressed I would say that they just blend better. When I tried to integrate a sub into my second system, I just couldnt make it disappear. These tweeters do the opposite, they mesh extremely well. I certainly wouldn't put my old tweeters back in. High five Bob, they just sound right!

First one was a snap, ten minutes. A Maltese could do it. Had to drill out the mounting holes a tad to fit the screws, no big deal, I thought I was home free. The second Khorn had some bazaar additional 1962 glued on bracing, signed by Nancy J. Hildwein with some crazy drawings on them. Its truly nuts, I should post some pics. I had to beat the living crap out of them to access the original tweeter. Being a vintage JBL guy before getting on the Klipsch wagon, I always heard rumors that JBLs cabinet factory used what was on hand. Heres proof that PWK did the same.

[PrestonTom]

I have a complaint about the BEC tweeter. I'm going to have to trash perhaps 10% of my CDs. The original tweeters let poorly recorded material sound passable. And friends, there is a lot of it out there and even the best lables slip us a few. Bob's tweeter makes a bad recording sound like a bad recording. And as we play through our libraries, I expect Bob will get a lot of grief on that account.

I saved all my parts. They are carefully boxed and labled. I can return to 100% Klipsch in less than an hour. I don't expect to have to do it.

This has been an interesting thread. Let's do it again, sometime.

DRBILL

DrBill,

I am glad to hear about your "problem".

The thread has wandered, but I am interested in your thoughts about the new tweeters. Were the old ones bad? Is it simply more HF extension or what. I guess what I am asking is if you could be more specific about the nature of the improvements.

There are other alternatives out there and I am wondering how to choose between them.

Thanks,

-Tom

[Deang]

Tom, it sounds like a K-77, but clearer and more open. It's crisper, with more "snap" in the transients. Where the thing really excels over the K-77 is in the cymbals -- it gives you the trailing edge and decay. IOW's, you hear all the cymbal not just part of it.

"So a stock pair of Klipschhorns are not a seriously good sounding speaker?"

You're funny. That's not what I said or meant and you know it.

"If they are seriously good sounding speaker but just to a lessor degree would you say they are 50% good sounding or 95% ???"

90%. Of course, someone like Dana or anyone else running 2" exit drivers might come up with a different number. I'm comparing the sound of what I have now to the best sound I had with the K-401/K-55 and K-77-M. If we go with the 10% improvement figure, then also factor in that 10% means more to some than others. The number of course doesn't mean much. I'm just one guy in one room. Some might like a bigger number, or like you a much smaller number.

[D-MAN]

My original prototype horns (remember those, Rob?) had the Eminence APT-50 tweeters on them in the stock screw-on horn.

I thought they were better than EV T-35/K77 even though they were quite a bit cheaper. I think the Eminence APT sounds pretty close to the

EV T-350 as I remember it, maybe a smidgeon "weaker". However, I cannot speak to the difference between Bob's version horn and what I was used to.

DM

[meagain]

Chicago Pete - Cute dog. Can I ask what type of crossovers you have in there?

Question: Would one get more of a dramatic improvement if coming from a k-77 or k-77-m?

If you had speakers with both k-77 and k-77-m and could only buy one pair of BECs - which would you upgrade?

[sfogg]

Dean,

" with more "snap" in the transients."

Makes sense... transient response is basically a fancy way of talking

about FR. Bob's new tweeters have better FR then the K77s... therefor

they would have better transient response too.

" then also factor in that 10% means more to some than others. "

Only to those in the anal society....

Shawn

P.S. For those complaining that better tweeters make some songs sound

too bright/worse.... that is what EQ and even basic tone controls are

for. Simple, direct and to the point. When needed you can tame the

overly hot recordings while at the same time keeping the advantages of

the better driver for all your good material. Sticking with a rolled

off driver as a sort of EQ for the bad recordings doesn't make sense

IMO as it also compromises the good stuff.

If you pre-amp lacks tone controls make a line level first order low

pass filter at around 10kHz or 12kHz and use a DPDT switch after it to

be able to switch it in/out of the circuit. Then just put that between

your pre-amp and amp (or in a tape loop) and as needed switch it into

the circuit. It will give you a rolloff closer to what the K77s do and

will help to tame bright recordings.