Yet Anothert Heritage Horn Upgrade ?

[jorjen]

D-Man,

I was aware of that issue from the other thread, but was wondering about making the cabinet slightly taller hoping to increase the mouth size enough. I am not going to start talking compromise here, I promise. But, how tall do you suppose a single 15" Jubilee cabinet would have to be to increase the mouth size enough to function properly? Would it actually have to be twice as tall?

[Al Klappenberger]

Jorjen,

That horn looks like Martinelli's construction! It is almost identical with my Trachorn without the detatchable driver board. I know it's going to sound good!

Al K.

[D-MAN]

The full size Jubilee as well as the Khorn is about 39" tall, the inner channels being about 37-1/2" tall. The Jubilee mouth is slightly larger than the Khorn but figure at least 4 square feet is needed as a minimum in 1/8th space. The Khorn mouth is about 675 sq. inches overall. Note that the La Scala and Belle are also about 4 square feet, but they have a higher Fc and tend to be used in 1/2 or 1/4 space.

My old half-height 15" driver horns were 24" tall. Here are the revised plans which I shortened down to be close to 40" tall when stacked.

[JJkizak]

Why doesn't someone try building a huge bass horn instead of folding it over like PWK did? Now that would be a real butt kicker.

JJK

[jwc]

These horn construction threads just get my wheels going.

I will check out thoat edgar article...I think I read it before.

I put a hold on any build of bass horn for now as I am in serious need of auditioning the bass horn sound. I have not heard the Jubilee and I haven't heard the Khorn in a long time. My late La scalas had great sound but can't go low enough for me. Dana has given me great ideas for future build of bass horns but I will wait to see what I hear at Hope this year. I am in too much love with my dbb's that I wonder if I will like the bass horn sound or not.

As far as building a 200Hz or 300Hz cutoff mid horn...I wasn't even close to getting there yet. I am watching you like a hawk. Can't wait until you post the construction.

jc

[D-MAN]

That is a very interesting thought. Why do I prefer bass horns over other more convienient speakers? I've been through a few, that's for sure - why did I come back to horns?

Besides an unbelievable efficiency, what I think the bass horn gives you is a convincing solidity, impact, nuance, depth and placement of the bass(es) in the overall soundstage.

Accuity would be the word I'd use. It's ability to take changes in dynamics in stride make it seem effortless, and THAT is the key: Natural. The next best thing to being there.

I can't really describe it further, but it makes up for its size by its sound, for me at least.

{edit} I had some further thoughts on the matter...

I think that we don't technically listen to the musical amplifiers or instruments directly, we listen to the recording of the sound propagating from those particular amps (in the case of electrification) or instruments/vocalists a distance from the source to the microphones, etc, the wall reverberations, et al. Very little of which is going to be direct in any case (even direct probably has "effects" employed to enhance "spaciousness"). It's all about TIME and wave propogation from source to microphone.

The high efficiency of the bass horn tends to reproduce this "nuance" information quite well, I think that it all boils down to efficiency, which means dynamics, which is reasonably close to reality. Hence, the quality of "sounding real" that everyone talks about when talking horns. I think that a well setup pair of bass horns vs. a pair of direct radiators of equal output is and would be easily distinguished in a blind A-B test by untrained listeners.

Less distortion is always going to be less distortion, and would be regarded by most as being "clearer" or "cleaner". I would guess that if the participants of the test could not see the size of the speakers, they would most likely choose the horns as being the better in overall performance.

This is only conjecture.

Dana

[jorjen]

Dana,

You hit it right on the head for me. Dynamics, Dynamics, Dynamics! Which create/reproduce an accurate and lifelike musical presentation. That is exactly why I could never completely sell myself on the direct radiating bottom end. There is an ease and take it in stride delivery to a bass horn that I have come to Love and do not think I will be happy without.

Man, this is some good stuff. Now, I am getting fired up about some bass horn construction. I guess my heart was never really all the way in the direct radiating bass of my CornScala project after living with the Khorns. Just wanted deeper bass and could'nt talk myself into tackling the Jubes. Well, I guess that may be about to change.

Mr. K,

It is actually Dr. Edgars construction. I followed your lead. And Dr. Edgar's of course. Sorry, but I just could not afford that second set of Trachorns I talked to you about some time back, so I had to do it this way. All I have in these is the material and my time. Plus, wanted a little larger horn with a lower cutoff for experimentation purposes. Now all I have to do is come up with the dough for 2" drivers. I like the JBL 2482 with the phenolic diaphram, but the sensitivity is so damn high, I am worried about having a problem pulling them into line with the other drivers. I already have a pair of 2404H new in the box for the top end. And on it goes.....

[D-MAN]

Jordan, I would love to have you make me a pair of those 2" tractrix's! Are you sure that you can't be talked into it?

Dana

[rplace]

Wow, I totally dig those horns, Jorjen. Put me on the list right behind D-man. You sure you are not going to build/sell them?

Can't wait to see your how to post so i can figure out if it is a project I could handle.

Thanks for the pix!

[3dzapper]

I knew you could do it Jordan!!!!! I was going to ask how they were coming along but didn't want to spill the beans on you.

Real nice job. Is that the 3/8" ply? How many layers?

DM, JWC, Rich, they are not hard to make. If I could do it, you can too!

Rick

[jwc]

Dana, everything you said makes good sense to me.

Here lies the problem......its my ear. Unfortunately, I think I have a a desire of "crude" bass. I don't have a way of describing this technically. My ear is accustomed to listening to a lot of what people on this forum would call "junk". "accuracy or accuity" doesn't stand out or should I say doesn't get appreciated with the majority of the recordings that run through my system.

I am hopeing at Hope that I will get to hear some great recordings and listen to some bass horns. My dbb's will be in the the farmhouse. I will be able to prove to myself this issue. I could just have a lust for "crude" bass. My wife thought my La scalas were an absolute joke when it came to bass. She love my dbb's and in fact loves my Tallcorns even better. Those were tuned too low and rumbled the house.

jc

[Daddy Dee]

jorjen,

fabulous looking horn! Looking forward to a thread on your construction process.

seti,

I have wondered the same thing. Of course, one problem, for those using

Khorns is the upper frequency of the bass bin is too low for the single

HF driver to pick up and carry the freight the rest of the way.

However, for the LaScala I think the transformation to two-way is a

workable proposition. Klipsch builds something in the KPT line which

looks like a Cornwall cab for the bass unit and something sitting atop

like what we saw on one of the Jubilees in Hope.

It is possible that the pricey driver is part of the apparent

reluctance to take this plunge. Also, I don't think folks have

identified a readily available and satisfactory horn for the project. I

think it would be important to have a horn that could load the higher

frequencies as well as the midrange.

[seti]

Why doesn't someone try building a huge bass horn instead of folding it over like PWK did? Now that would be a real butt kicker.

JJK

You mean like this long horn...

[seti]

seti,

I have wondered the same thing. Of course, one problem, for those using Khorns is the upper frequency of the bass bin is too low for the single HF driver to pick up and carry the freight the rest of the way.

However, for the LaScala I think the transformation to two-way is a workable proposition. Klipsch builds something in the KPT line which looks like a Cornwall cab for the bass unit and something sitting atop like what we saw on one of the Jubilees in Hope.

It is possible that the pricey driver is part of the apparent reluctance to take this plunge. Also, I don't think folks have identified a readily available and satisfactory horn for the project. I think it would be important to have a horn that could load the higher frequencies as well as the midrange.

I don't remember the exact crossover points of Jubilee Khorn Belle Scala perhaps they aren't as close as I thought. I

The price tag is pretty high but I've been wondering if those pricey drivers were what I really loved about that jubilee sound. I'll ask around this weekend and see what sort of response I get.

[jorjen]

Dana,

Let me toss it about a bit. You are in no hurry?

Rplace,

Thanks. I will see if I can figure something out.

Hey Rick!

Yeah, I was just about to bombard your email with pictures when I saw your post. I will send a few your way anyhow. Thanks for the help and encouragement.

Yes, the sides are the 3/8" bendable plywood, single layer. Thanks for the source. I think what I may do next time(if there is one), is put down a single layer of 1/8" Russian/Baltic/Finnish Birch first. This way the visible part of the opening from the front will have a smoother appearance. Then I will lay down a layer of 1/4" or 3/8" bendable plywood(with Gorilla Glue in between)over that to stop any resonance that would occur from just using the 1/8" Birch. Anything thicker than 1/8" in the Birch just will not bend to the extremes of a Tractrix flare. I tried soaking and steaming 1/4" and it would just not submit. The bendable plywood is neat stuff to work with, but you get a reptile scale effect on the side away from the bend(inside of horn)which requires alot of sanding.

DaddyDee,

Thank you for the compliment, it was alot of fun. I will work on getting the construction thread started.

[D-MAN]

Rick, the spirit is willing, but the shop doesn't exist! My table saw is still in pieces on the back porch (covered) but outside, not good. I've got a pair of bass horns ready for assembly sitting in my dining room in pieces (still). As you know, beating up plywood is not a problem for me, but the veneered ply scares me. It means lots of clamps, etc., which I also don't have. And to finally top off this unending monotonous litany of poor excuses, the weather has been HORRIBLE lately. And the dog ate my book report!

Yeah, I know, it's Seattle, what do I expect, but it's really BAD for this time of year - I've never seen anything like it.

Jordan, let me help you chew on it a bit! What's an offer you can't refuse?

Dana

[jorjen]

Dana,

Wow, you are really making it hard for me to refuse a forum brother and fellow lover of horns. I am not going to wake up with a horse head in my bed, am I?[]

Also, just popped into my head. You really like your BMS 4590's, eh? I am thinking of using the 4591 or the JBL 2482 with these horns. I like the fact that neither of these drivers use an Aluminum or Titanium diaphram. I have always liked phenolic or polyester for mid drivers. So, you think I would like the 4591's from what you can tell about your drivers? If I did not already have a brand new set of JBL 2404H, I might consider going 2-way with the 4590. Not sure how these horns would perform(if at all)that high. I guess they would at that, never thought about it.

[D-MAN]

Well, my 2404H's are sitting on the floor, where they've been since the BMS arrived.

However, the JBL's are still better in overall performance IMO, but I like the imaging ability of the coax better. That's just a personal judgement call.

Based on my experience with the 4590's I'd say go for it, it is a fine mid-priced midrange driver with extreme power-handling and sensitivity. But they are very loud!

Dana

[PrestonTom]

Jordan,

That looks fantastic!

I can only imagine the amount of time that went into those along with the number of headaches and details that had to be solved.

You guys are starting to inspire me.

Although I love my K-Horns I do have a fantasy that involves a 2-way system with a loaded horn for the bottom (perhaps a Jubilee) and a mid/high horn / driver that can get me up to about 16-17kHz. Add some bi-amping after an electronic crossover (acting on the digital out of the CD player) that will give some room correction and steep crossovers along with some time alignment (probably Behringer is cost effective).

Now that is a nice fantasy. You folks make sound like it could be achieved.

Good Luck & I will be following these threads closely,

-Tom

[3dzapper]

Dana, If you want to taste a pair of trachorns, I have my first pair I can lend you. Nowhere near as pretty as Jorden's but effective.[] Dee seemed to like them, Bob thought they were quieter, more laidback, than K-400s.

I can make a 2" rear plate for you but you will have to drill the holes to match your bolt pattern.

I have been meaning to make this offer for a few weeks, just could not find the right time. If you want to try them, give me a few days. I have to fix a little shipping damage when I get back from a big 3d archery shoot in Pa this weekend.

Rick