After RMAF, Khorns still impress but...

[wwh]

I had the opportunity to visit the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest last weekend,

and heard some very impressive top-dollar systems.

I haven't done much critical listening of other dealer systems over the years,

so this was one of my first opportunities to really experience the

top of the line.

After comparing with my Khorn system, the Khorns still impress compared to

systems costing much more. But, I have noticed some shrillness or harshness

in things like trumpets, high frequency violin, etc., that was absent in

many of the systems at the show. Sometimes it kind of sounds

like there is a kazoo somewhere in the orchestra (subtle, though).

So, I have made that critical mistake -- pondering upgrades.

To prevent the upgrade path from ending in Chapter 11, :-)

I'd like to make modifications that are likely to be effective, so any

advice or anecdotes are appreciated.

My Khorns are 1981 stock, except for Bob Crites rebuilt AA networks.

Cast K-400 with K-55V, K-77M tweeter.

Amp is a Crown D-45, and source is Slim Devices Squeezebox 3.

Possible changes:

- BEC upgrade tweeters. I know my speakers were sometimes driven

at high levels during their first 25 years. Never abused, but is non-fatal

tweeter damage possible, or likely? How could I tell?

- Lowering the squawker -> tweeter crossover frequency, in case the

behavior I've noticed is at the high end of the squawker's range.

- Vacuum tube amp -- SET or push-pull? The little engineer voice in my

head says that any decent amp, thermionic or solid state, should be

roughly the same when operating within spec, in their linear range. So

I'm skeptical that this really matters, but am willing to consider it.

- Outboard DAC. The Squeezebox has a rather good 24-bit DAC built in,

but many use a fancier outboard. The Squeezebox is very good through

headphones, though, so I'm doubtful there's much to be gained here.

- ALK Trachorns + BEC tweeters (+ ALK ES networks?) This is rather expensive

for my taste, but there are many positive testimonials out there.

- 6 channel DSP crossover + tri-amp each speaker. I think this would be

fun to try, but rather expensive.

- Do nothing -- Just stop being so analytical and enjoy the music.

Your thoughts?

- Bill

P.S. I think Klipsch should show their wares at next year's RMAF. It's

a lot of boutique manufacturers, but there are some larger companies

represented -- B&W, JBL (they had a pair of Hartsfields there), etc.

I'd love to hear Klipsch's new flagship system in person.

[gonzp]

As a participant of RMAF for the last few years. I was not able to attend this year. There definitely are some very nice high dollar systems out there. The more systems I hear, the more I believe in synergy. I feel that I am at the point of diminishing returns. Very little gains for very high dollars. I live one state North of Colo and we have a Colorado/Wyoming stereo group that gets together quarterly. We are always looking for new members. Let me know if you are interested.

[DrWho]

What about PWK's upgrade, the Jubilee?

If I can try to relate to what you're describing, it sounds like you're

hearing the throatiness of exponential horns and the effects of

collapsed polars. Does it sound like someone is cupping their hands

over their mouth? You mention cost concerns so maybe the Jubilee isn't

an option, but I think it's your best Klipsch-engineered solution.

Moving to a tractrix horn with flat power response is going to give you

that intimate direct radiator feel that you probably heard at RMAF, but

with the dynamics and low distortion of horns...

Is there any amount of graininess or tizziness to the sound that you

don't like? The distortions of DACs are pretty easy to distinguish when

you know what to look for. Perhaps try playing an MP3 through your

system to get an idea of the kind of suck to look out for.

Before moving to fancy passive crossovers, I think it makes more sense

to pursue the route of active crossovers. Not only will they be able to

provide better crossover transitions (especially with time-alignment),

they will be able to be reused in case anything else changes in your

speakers. Passive crossovers can be optimized for only one speaker

configuration. Time-alignment

isn't going to have a huge impact on the distortions I think you're

describing, but it's going to introduce a level of cohesiveness and

overall smoother sound. The other nice thing about active crossovers is

they often come with a few bands of EQ too - which might prove very

useful in taming any driver specific frequency response aberrations.

One thing you didn't comment on is the quality of the acoustics of your

room. Do you notice the same shrillness everywhere in the room? Or does

it seem like the actual sound of the problem shifts as you move around?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but you mentioned a little

engineer voice in your head and I think I can hear him telling you to

try and figure out the problem before throwing solutions at it []

- Do nothing -- Just stop being so analytical and enjoy the music.

If you cared only about the music, then wouldn't you be just as

satisfied with the system in your car? There is certainly a point where

one needs to just enjoy the system for what it is, but there is also no

shame in finding the gear-head aspects entertaining too. I would say

that when you're no longer having fun playing around with the system or

run outta money is when you need to sit back and just enjoy the tunes.

[wwh]

What about PWK's upgrade, the Jubilee?

Maybe someday...

If I can try to relate to what you're describing, it sounds like you're
hearing the throatiness of exponential horns and the effects of
collapsed polars. Does it sound like someone is cupping their hands
over their mouth?

Somewhat.
It's not really an annoyance, just something I noticed recently by
comparison. Kind of like a PA horn (exponential coloration?), but less
extreme.

Is there any amount of graininess or tizziness to the sound that you
don't like? The distortions of DACs are pretty easy to distinguish when
you know what to look for.

Is this the same sort of audible DAC distortion as reducing 16-bit samples to, say, 12-bit?

Before moving to fancy passive crossovers, I think it makes more sense
to pursue the route of active crossovers. Not only will they be able to
provide better crossover transitions (especially with time-alignment),
they will be able to be reused in case anything else changes in your
speakers. Passive crossovers can be optimized for only one speaker
configuration. Time-alignment
isn't going to have a huge impact on the distortions I think you're
describing, but it's going to introduce a level of cohesiveness and
overall smoother sound. The other nice thing about active crossovers is
they often come with a few bands of EQ too - which might prove very
useful in taming any driver specific frequency response aberrations.

I
have considered attempting this using a decent 6-channel sound card and
DSP software driving a 6-channel home theater receiver like the
Panasonic XR55. Maybe not ideal, but as an experiment.

One thing you didn't comment on is the quality of the acoustics of your
room. Do you notice the same shrillness everywhere in the room? Or does
it seem like the actual sound of the problem shifts as you move around?

It's
most detectable at the "sweet spot." Elsewhere, not so much. The room
is an odd-shaped basement (finished, wall-to-wall carpet). The speakers
are about 17 feet apart, and I sit 8.5 feet from the center of the
front wall. The ceiling is just a little over 7 feet.

[arfandbark]

Here's a cheap attempt to take away harshness or listening fatigue.

Buy a Harman Kardon 730 or 930 Twin Powered SS unit from the early seventies.

35 or 45 watts a side. Tubeish sound without spending big bucks.

If you find one and don't like it you'll aways get your money back.

[seti]

I would like to attend RMAF.

Did you notice if Josh from ElectronLuv was there with an insane tube and horn system. 

Klipschorns do not sound as you described so there must be something wrong. If they sounded like that they wouldn't have been in production for 60 years. 

[DrWho]

Is there any amount of graininess or tizziness to the sound that you

don't like? The distortions of DACs are pretty easy to distinguish when

you know what to look for.

Is this the same sort of audible DAC distortion as reducing 16-bit samples to, say, 12-bit?

It depends on how that 12-bits is generated. Ultimately, the bit-rate determines the noise floor of the digital system. With typical 16-Bit DACs, you usually end up with about 12-Bits of real resolution (since the last 4 bits get messed up by analog noise). If you're not hearing digital noise, then this isn't what you're hearing. I was thinking more of what happens with sample rates and aliasing. Digital distortions tend to be readily identified because they're generally not harmonically related to the original source.

Before moving to fancy passive crossovers, I think it makes more sense

to pursue the route of active crossovers. Not only will they be able to

provide better crossover transitions (especially with time-alignment),

they will be able to be reused in case anything else changes in your

speakers. Passive crossovers can be optimized for only one speaker

configuration. Time-alignment

isn't going to have a huge impact on the distortions I think you're

describing, but it's going to introduce a level of cohesiveness and

overall smoother sound. The other nice thing about active crossovers is

they often come with a few bands of EQ too - which might prove very

useful in taming any driver specific frequency response aberrations.

I

have considered attempting this using a decent 6-channel sound card and

DSP software driving a 6-channel home theater receiver like the

Panasonic XR55. Maybe not ideal, but as an experiment.

I dunno why I can't remember the receiver at the moment, but it's supposed to have 7(?) channels of the quality digital amps. A lab partner of mine was mentioning them and how they usually go for like $50 on E-Bay or something crazy like that. I'll try to find out what he was talking about. There are some possible concerns with the digital amps, but nothing that couldn't be remedied with a little DSP.

Speaking of which, what DSP software are you referring to?

[Daddy Dee]

WWH,

Yeh, there is always the option of just enjoying the music and it's not a bad thought.

OTOH, if you want to do a few things without spending alot of money....

The CT 125 tweeters are quite musical. To my ears they bested even the Beyma, which I had in my Khorns at the time I tried the CT 125. Their realism bests the K77 by far.

The 4500hz mod on my BEC type A crossovers with the CT125 was the best my Khorns ever sounded.

Hopefully there would be some Klipsch forum members in your geography to check out some tube amps without having to purchase them. SET or PP is an interesting call. Conventional wisdom if there was only one choice to make one time get the PP. The bass dynamics are better, IMO. I have loved and lived with both. There is something nearly magical about female vocals, like Diana Krall, with acoustic accompaniment on SET.

The trachorn is an interesting, but as you mention, somewhat expensive option. I had the chance to listen to a diy tratrix horn a forum member made. It used the same curve from an edgarhorn from which the trachorn is derived. It just fit under the tophat, but would need a new grille if it was going to have good WAF. My take was that I was surprised it made as much difference as it did. It did open up the sound in a pleasant way. What Dr. Who said about horn reflections in the K400 sounds right. The K400 sounds sort of nasal and constricted compared to the tractrix.

At the time I tried the tractrix, I was already so happy with the sound of my Khorns with the CT125 and the 4500hz mod I didn't really feel motivated to do much else.

edit: just looked at your system profile. With the Crown D45, I'd suggest to put amp changes last on your list. I think it would be difficult to improve on what you've got in your system right now. Heck, Mr. Paul used a Crown D60 to drive his Belle center with a Mac driving the L and R.

[mike stehr]

"- ALK Trachorns + BEC tweeters (+ ALK ES networks?) This is rather expensive
for my taste, but there are many positive testimonials out there."

I've only listened to two Khorn systems in my life. This first pair was bone stock, no mods, I'm pretty sure. The midrange and top-end reminded me of my Cornwalls with clean tight lower bass.

The second pair of Khorns were only a couple years old and Oak. I think some headbanger in Ohio was the first owner.

These have the ALK/Martinelli Trachorn with Beyma tweeters....dunno the model # of tweeter. The first time I heard these Oak Khorns, the first owner had his own homebrew crossovers still installed.

Egads.....So much more smooth, refined, and balanced. I thought it had excellent tonality. It's spendy, but there is a positive difference.

Last Sat I listened to them with ALK extreme slope networks.

Now I have a pair of Lascala cabinets, hatin' life because there is no way I can ever live with the big honky bullhorn and tizz tweeter after hearing that combination atop a Khorn. It may be time to sell the Cornwalls........

[LarryC]

After living with quality solid state monoblocs for many years, I found tubes to be a great improvement not to mention relief (much more accurate detail IMO), so that's the first thing I would think of. A lot of forum members are very happy with Craig/NOSvalves's VRD monoblocs. The Juicy Music preamps are a logical matchup with those -- Blueberry Xtreme if you have phono, or the Peach if not.

A poll of forum members not long ago showed a really big percentage had tubes in their amp chain, and there's gotta be a reason. I myself (just me!) wouldn't be happy with the SS amps or preamps I've heard.

Specs have never been a meaningful measure of audio quality in my opinion, and similar specs simply don't predict similar sound.

I haven't heard the Trachorns, and I'm embarrassed to say I don't know what electronic crossovers and SS amps Roy Delgado uses in Hope. However, I did try out the Crites tweeters -- 3 of us on the forum tried them out and thought they weren't as musical, or didn't blend as well as the K-77's. It may have been an incompatibility with the AK-4 crossovers in my case. Anyway, most by far prefer the Crites tweets.

[Deang]

Mike, so you made it over to Bob's, pretty cool. I guess I am a headbanger, but I haven't been jacking on the volume for almost two years. Those Khorns were dialed in for late night "jamming" in the millwatt range. If he leaned on the volume much, I imagine they sounded a little spitty with the networks that shipped with them. The Beyma in those is the CP-25. The mid-drivers are JBL 2470's. -- it ran me about $1300 to do both top sections. O.K., sure, a little "spendy", but not so bad compared to what most end up spending on gear in an attempt overcome the shortcomings of the K-400 and K-77.

Larry, The Hope set up uses QSC amplifers and the EV DX-38 active unit.

[mike stehr]

Mike, so you made it over to Bob's, pretty cool. I guess I am a headbanger, but I haven't been jacking on the volume for almost two years. Those Khorns were dialed in for late night "jamming" in the millwatt range. If he leaned on the volume much, I imagine they sounded a little spitty with the networks that shipped with them. The Beyma in those is the CP-25. The mid-drivers are JBL 2470's. -- it ran me about $1300 to do both top sections. O.K., sure, a little "spendy", but not so bad compared to what most end up spending on gear in an attempt overcome the shortcomings of the K-400 and K-77.

I only said headbanger to get your attention. You can still be a headbanger and not jack up the volume. I do the same.

I didn't notice any "spit" with either network, though the listening times were short.

I meant no offense by saying "spendy"........it is for a poor slob like me......

You make a good point, maybe some should pay more heed to upgrading the midhorn and tweeter over amplifier upgrades and source or whatever. It isn't too difficult to dump 1300 bucks on a amplifier, and they could still end up with honk and tizz.

Of course, the Mac MC275 probably helped. But I would guess with the trachorn and the drivers/networks used, the speakers would be less particular about what type of amplifier is used.

I dunno...I guess I'll pony up, and get in line for the Trachorns to start. (Actually, woofers first) I can probably fly with the Cornwall K51V driver, until I can scrounge up flow for a different set of compression drivers. Same with the tweeter. Use what I have until I can afford better.

I can build the networks, though it'll take a mountain of parts and cash.

I should have my head examined......

[cjgeraci]

Mike, so you made it over to Bob's, pretty cool. I guess I am a headbanger, but I haven't been jacking on the volume for almost two years. Those Khorns were dialed in for late night "jamming" in the millwatt range. If he leaned on the volume much, I imagine they sounded a little spitty with the networks that shipped with them. The Beyma in those is the CP-25. The mid-drivers are JBL 2470's. -- it ran me about $1300 to do both top sections. O.K., sure, a little "spendy", but not so bad compared to what most end up spending on gear in an attempt overcome the shortcomings of the K-400 and K-77.

I only said headbanger to get your attention. You can still be a headbanger and not jack up the volume. I do the same.

I didn't notice any "spit" with either network, though the listening times were short.

I meant no offense by saying "spendy"........it is for a poor slob like me......

You make a good point, maybe some should pay more heed to upgrading the midhorn and tweeter over amplifier upgrades and source or whatever. It isn't too difficult to dump 1300 bucks on a amplifier, and they could still end up with honk and tizz.

Of course, the Mac MC275 probably helped. But I would guess with the trachorn and the drivers/networks used, the speakers would be less particular about what type of amplifier is used.

I dunno...I guess I'll pony up, and get in line for the Trachorns to start. (Actually, woofers first) I can probably fly with the Cornwall K51V driver, until I can scrounge up flow for a different set of compression drivers. Same with the tweeter. Use what I have until I can afford better.

I can build the networks, though it'll take a mountain of parts and cash.

I should have my head examined......

Mike, agree with Dean on the Trachorns and moving away from the K77s. If and when you get to the point of upgrading tweeters, let me know if you are still interested in Beymas CP25s. I still run of pair of those on my rear modded Belles and would probably sell them to you at a very decent price. I like the Beymas, but I have been running all Eminence up front (and the sides) - the driver that Bob Crites uses in his tweeter - and I may want to switch out the rears, to get the perfect 7.1 tweeter blend.

If you go after a set of ancient JBL 2470s, be very, very careful. Most of the original phenolic dias in the 2470s have been blown and/or replaced by titanium dias. In your case, that may not matter that much since you are running Corns - and you do not need them to go down to 400 or 500hz. But, just keep your eyes open because finding a nice, working set can be a headache (speaking from recent experience).

Carl.

[Groomlakearea51]

The CT 125 tweeters are quite musical. To my ears they bested even the Beyma, which I had in my Khorns at the time I tried the CT 125. Their realism bests the K77 by far. The 4500hz mod on my BEC type A crossovers with the CT125 was the best my Khorns ever sounded.

Agree with Dee, for the money, the CT125 and the A/4500 crossover was the single greatest improvement on a pair of 79 Klipschorns. I've moved that setup over to LaScalas for right now, but the 78's that I'm working on will get the CT125/ A/4500 mod. I have a pair of 86's, but use a BEC built AK-3 in that pair. That pair however has a K55M's and the 401 horns and sound very, very good.

[klipschfanatic]

I do not work for PS Audio. I have used and currently use their products with great results. Would suggest you try a power plant and an outboard DAC. I used a P300 power plant with Khorns and a Perpetual Technologies DAC. Currently using a Premier Power Plant with Cornwalls and a McIntosh MDA 1000 DAC. PS Audio products are available on Audiogon or order direct from them to try in your system-30 days-money back policy. Let your ears decide.

Try swapping out the Sqeezebox with another source and compare the same music.

Klipschfully,

[Cut-Throat]

- Vacuum tube amp -- SET or push-pull? The little engineer voice in my

head says that any decent amp, thermionic or solid state, should be

roughly the same when operating within spec, in their linear range. So

I'm skeptical that this really matters, but am willing to consider it.

I did not read through all of the posts, but I'd replace your amp first. Try to get a friend with a decent tube amp to bring it over to your place.

I have some Crown S.S. amps - D150 DC300 and I would not dream of using these to listen to music.

My recommendation would be to try a SET amp and it will probably sound better than 95% of the gear that you heard at RMAF.

[mike stehr]

Mike, agree with Dean on the Trachorns and moving away from the K77s. If and when you get to the point of upgrading tweeters, let me know if you are still interested in Beymas CP25s. I still run of pair of those on my rear modded Belles and would probably sell them to you at a very decent price. I like the Beymas, but I have been running all Eminence up front (and the sides) - the driver that Bob Crites uses in his tweeter - and I may want to switch out the rears, to get the perfect 7.1 tweeter blend.

If you go after a set of ancient JBL 2470s, be very, very careful. Most of the original phenolic dias in the 2470s have been blown and/or replaced by titanium dias. In your case, that may not matter that much since you are running Corns - and you do not need them to go down to 400 or 500hz. But, just keep your eyes open because finding a nice, working set can be a headache (speaking from recent experience).

Carl.

Yeah, if you are no rush with the tweeters. I could probably do that....

I'd much rather try to find new midrange compression drivers over vintage JBL, just for reasons you describe. I'm sure there is plenty of modern offerings.

This isn't a upgrade for my Cornwalls, I aquired a pair of raw birch Lascala cabinets. I'll use the K51V driver from the Cornwalls until I can afford something else.

[NOSValves]

My recommendation would be to try a SET amp and it will probably sound better than 95% of the gear that you heard at RMAF.

I'd venture to say the majority of what is at RAMF is SET amps. At least I would imagine it that way since the first promoter/organizer of that show was Ron Welbourne.

[Cut-Throat]

My recommendation would be to try a SET amp and it will probably sound better than 95% of the gear that you heard at RMAF.

I'd venture to say the majority of what is at RAMF is SET amps. At least I would imagine it that way since the first promoter/organizer of that show was Ron Welbourne.

My point exactly! - What he was probably impressed with - were the SET amps!

The Khorns are a worthy speaker!

[wwh]

I would like to attend RMAF.

Did you notice if Josh from ElectronLuv was there with an insane tube and horn system.

I

don't think ElectronLuv was there, but I did see some impressive horn

systems -- see below. I enhanced the picture because my flash couldn't

illuminate the large room.

I went on Saturday and tried to see most of it, so didn't linger

long. Next year, I think Friday would be a better choice -- smaller

crowds, so more opportunities to listen to my own music.