Coytee Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Got the email. I forgot I use a "junk" name on the forum.... I never check that manually. At work, it is automatically checked. Question for Dean... Dean...the passive I have... would you describe it (in parts) as a "good/better or best" kinda thing? I know it looks like you used a hammer to build it but I'll keep that our little secret.... and I won't tell anyone about the boards either..... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I direct your attention to the second post down on page 8. I didn't ask for that. Whatever mike tn, you're the type of person who's always going to get the last blue word in. Greg Edit: Good grief Greg your not the victim you perceive yourself to be! Just read a few post back and my response makes plenty of sense. And just to refresh your selective memory this post on page 5 is were this thread started going south because of your Jab ( which you and I both know who it was intended at). You have been doing this since our discussion a couple of weeks ago and for the most part I did try to ignore you but you don't seem to want to let it go. Maron Horonzak: After auditioning Carls 902 & trackhorns last sunday i agree,,,, The 402/69 are a bunch of malarky,, and with alot less DSP EQ Obviously Maron, you haven't been paying attention to the Jubilee threads. Don't you know that DSP and EQ are the future of horn loudspeaker design. How about this setup? Greg Can we end this now? You stop your little Jabs and I want have anything to respond to. Fair Enough? mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I direct your attention to the second post down on page 8. I didn't ask for that. Whatever mike tn, you're the type of person who's always going to get the last blue word in. Greg Edit: Good grief Greg your not the victim you perceive yourself to be! Just read a few post back and my response makes plenty of sense. Can we end this now? mike tn YES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 "LOL on the "studies have shown". That's like polls. " This isn't new. The importance of power response has been known for quite awhile. The original AR was big into this and many designers since then have continued in this. If you listened outdoors all that matters is on axis response as that is all you would hear. Most don't listen that way though, they listen in a room with walls that reflect sound all around. A speaker that is flat on axis but has a big suckout off axis (say from a 2 way cone/dome setup that is running the woofer well into beaming) will not sound flat on axis in room. You hear the composite of the on axis sound and the reflections from the room (off axis)... you would hear something of the suckout. How much varies by the room you are in. Speakers with wildly different on axis and off axis sound are less predicatable as to how they will sound in any given room. When a speaker has flat power response the resulting sound is more consistent room to room. Look at Revel loudspeakers (who are big into power response) and they are rated at +/- 0.5dB 29 to 18kHz IN ROOM relative to what their target response is. That means the speaker is going to sound how it was intented to sound in room. That is great and is not just a case of a BS spec. Horns have a *huge* advantage here. They can have much tighter pattern control then a cone/dome system and they can control that to a much lower frequency if the horn is big enough. The K402 and the Jub LF horn is exploiting that advantage. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 So is the 510 horn a miniature 402 in almost every way, or are there significant differences other than size between those two Jubilee HF horns? I have heard the 402, and I have a pair of the 510 horns. I completely am not impressed with the 510 horn and think a k-400/k-401 will run circles around it if using it as a mid horn. Even adding a K-70-g matching tweeter to the k-510 and using an official klipsch crossover leaves me wondering what all the woop-tee-do is about. Doesn't matter the driver...k-1132, k-1133, k-69...I tried all three of these drivers and still not impressed with the k-510 In reading some of the other comments, and references to the k-510 starting as late as 1.5khz kinda of explains what I am hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 "In reading some of the other comments, and references to the k-510starting as late as 1.5khz kinda of explains what I am hearing." The 1.5kHz thing is where it looses pattern control not where it starts rolling off. The K510 is good to 500hz. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 So is the 510 horn a miniature 402 in almost every way, or are there significant differences other than size between those two Jubilee HF horns? I have heard the 402, and I have a pair of the 510 horns. I completely am not impressed with the 510 horn and think a k-400/k-401 will run circles around it if using it as a mid horn. Even adding a K-70-g matching tweeter to the k-510 and using an official klipsch crossover leaves me wondering what all the woop-tee-do is about. Doesn't matter the driver...k-1132, k-1133, k-69...I tried all three of these drivers and still not impressed with the k-510 In reading some of the other comments, and references to the k-510 starting as late as 1.5khz kinda of explains what I am hearing. not like i could change your mind but the only official network that i know of that uses the k-70 and k-69 with 510 is the 335 network. those are designed with a screen in front and as such the freq response without a screen in front is not very flat....... roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Has Dean's network been measured? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Extensive studies have shown that loudspeakers with an even power response (equal amounts of on and off-axis energy) are preferred by listeners over those where the high frequencies have narrowing dispersion (beam). one of the best studies i read was done by floyd toole. roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I have heard the 402, and I have a pair of the 510 horns. I completely am not impressed with the 510 horn and think a k-400/k-401 will run circles around it if using it as a mid horn. Even adding a K-70-g matching tweeter to the k-510 and using an official klipsch crossover leaves me wondering what all the woop-tee-do is about. Doesn't matter the driver...k-1132, k-1133, k-69...I tried all three of these drivers and still not impressed with the k-510 When I switched from the K400/K-77 mid-hi combo to the K510/K-69A tweeter, there was a very real improvement in several areas, mostly clarity, low-level detail retrieval, fuller stereo effect, to name a few. Since at the same time, I also went to bi-amping through the Dx38, it may not exactly be an apples-to-apples comparison, and 3-way to 2-way is a big change, too, but in my room every listener including me found the new horn/tweeter combo to be a big step up in sound quality and realism. The time-alignment helps, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Has Dean's network been measured? Not my network, it's Roy's network -- I just built the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Has Dean's network been measured? Not my network, it's Roy's network -- I just built the thing. lol, I know...just wondering if it works as intended. That whole proof of performance thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Thanks to all for describing Power Response and the importance of off-axis response and it's effect on the overall sound of the speaker. I'm a little disappointed that no one jumped on my earlier statement that said something to the effect, "I don't care about off-axis response because I do my listening on-axis", not realizing the importance of off-axis response. My skin is thick. Please correct me if I say something that seems uninformed (because it is, and I want to know about it). That's one of the reason's why I like this site, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Thanks to all for describing Power Response and the importance of off-axis response and it's effect on the overall sound of the speaker. I'm a little disappointed that no one jumped on my earlier statement that said something to the effect, "I don't care about off-axis response because I do my listening on-axis", not realizing the importance of off-axis response. My skin is thick. Please correct me if I say something that seems uninformed (because it is, and I want to know about it). That's one of the reason's why I like this site, In fact you were corrected this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Has Dean's network been measured? Not my network, it's Roy's network -- I just built the thing. lol, I know...just wondering if it works as intended. That whole proof of performance thing... I'll let you know. [] Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Has Dean's network been measured? Not my network, it's Roy's network -- I just built the thing. like doc said.....did you measure it...........just kidding deano.... cake tare, roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 ""not like i could change your mind but the only official network thati know of that uses the k-70 and k-69 with 510 is the 335 network. those are designed with a screen in front and as such the freq responsewithout a screen in front is not very flat....... roy"" Ok, I'll have to try it behind a screen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 ""not like i could change your mind but the only official network that i know of that uses the k-70 and k-69 with 510 is the 335 network. those are designed with a screen in front and as such the freq response without a screen in front is not very flat....... roy"" Ok, I'll have to try it behind a screen.... and provide a 3db/oct boost starting at 2kHz. this is curve that all cinema stage speakers have to try to hit in order to work with film audio.....in case you are interested. roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Prettier ?? less EQ required ? simpler network ?? I seem to recall Roy once telling me that the TAD 4002 driver, though expensive, could replace the K69 driver and also require fewer PEQ settings (I don't know how many fewer). Some might even think it's prettier and if so, that would be three out of three! I'd wonder if a change to the TAD driver, requiring fewer PEQ's, would satisfy some of the concerns expressed here? (I don't know if it would make a passive more simple as all this crossover stuff is voo-doo to me) The driver is on the back... you still have the big black horn up front.... by less EQ I meant a simple passive........ stir... stir.... stir[6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 It is akin to those of us not in the secret handshake club. Most aren't too worried we don't belong. You all don't need to slam us over there, and then come here for overtime work...Chill out, or else blow the gasket early. You are raging about two people who have Jubilees. Maybe that is progress, though. Examing why people think and say what they do, and attempting to find ways to better explain the complex mechanisms involved with all this stuff, isn't "slamming". Challenging ideas and comments that aren't accurate -- isn't "slamming" either How come you Jub guys didn't teach me the secret handshake? Dean... nice explanation. Thank you for taking the time. Now would have a similar picture to explain how this hybrid Trachorn might work... or even the tractrix ?? wink wink nod slap, wink twink bump and aone last nod (towards the left)[Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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