winchester21 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I am thinking about easing into a tube 2 ch setup to run my yamaha table into my k horns. I have heard many tube setups but my knowledge on this subject is very limited. The amp that I really want is a Mac 275 but i am not prepared to drop 3 or 4 grand at this point in the economy. I am seeing some really nice lower powered pairs in the 1500.00 range here and elsewhere. I am presently running a Mac c34V preamp- very minty example- no floor noise to speak of- very little usage. My present power amp is a very nice minty Mac 2105 with no issues and very low noise. How is this C34V going to pair up with a lower powered tube amp? Am i defeating the purpose by using the SS pre amp with a tube power amp? I am looking to spend 1000-1800 dollars on a tube amp if I decide to persue this course of action. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowntnbkr Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 FWIW, I ran VRD's with a EAD pre for the longest time and loved it. Granted I was not using my TT then. Now I have gone to a MAC c220 and am very happy. I have been told that if you are going to mix SS and tubes that is the way to do it. There is a guy in the garage sale letting a pair of walnut VRD's go for 1650 shipped. I do not think you could do any better in the price range you are looking at. I now use VRD's, the C220 and a MCD 201. My buddy has the same setup except for a MC275 and I don't think his system is any better than mine. I guess this is somewhat of a plug for Craig's amps, but they really are very good amps and to get a pair right now for that price....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 In a tube and SS mix, it is usually the preamp which brings more tube flavor to the table. So the conventional wisdom would be to use a tube pre and SS power amp. Of course, the units still need to complement each other well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 FWIW, I ran VRD's with a EAD pre for the longest time and loved it. Granted I was not using my TT then. Now I have gone to a MAC c220 and am very happy. I have been told that if you are going to mix SS and tubes that is the way to do it. There is a guy in the garage sale letting a pair of walnut VRD's go for 1650 shipped. I do not think you could do any better in the price range you are looking at. I now use VRD's, the C220 and a MCD 201. My buddy has the same setup except for a MC275 and I don't think his system is any better than mine. I guess this is somewhat of a plug for Craig's amps, but they really are very good amps and to get a pair right now for that price....... I'd love to hear VRDs with Tannoy System 15 DMT II!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Just so I know it's been said... I've had various amps (tube) in my system They ALL sounded good/great... The one that struck me as sounding the most SPOOKY good was a Transcendent Sound single ended OTL amp (SE-OTL) http://transcendentsound.com/ I obtained it from none other than our own Daddy Dee. I actually had TWO of them and bridged them to 4 watts each. I'd suggest you debate your volume desires/requirements. With two of them, bridged to 4 watts... my Khorns probably sounded the most fantastic they ever sounded. Even my wife and her sister both made comments at dinner once just how real it sounded (they're the ones who said "it sounds like the singer is in the other room" kind of statement) I however, couldn't live with 4 watts so they're gone. With that experience though, I've come to realize that if/when I fork out my own hard earned cash (and with the fall of the market I can guarantee it's hard earned) Anyways... the next type amp that I will solicit for myself will be another OTL amp. Now that I'm biamping, I can perhaps get by with fewer watts and still maintain some headroom while at same time, getting the spooky sound that was soooooooooooo nice. After having sold my McIntosh MC-30's, MC-2102, Wright 2A3's, Jolida (forget model) and having the Viva 300B as well as the Quad II amps to play around with, I've come to ask myself... "what all do they have in common" Among several answers I suppose, they all have a transformer between the tubes and the speakers whereas the OTL amps do not. I then wondered if it was the absence of this transformer that was the "missing ingredient" that I liked so much about the sound. I do not know that answer conclusively BUT, feel I know it well enough that the next amp I intend to buy myself, will be an OTL amp. Now that I've had the Viva and the Quad to mess around with (Quad being 15 watts) I can rest fairly comfortably that the Transcendent T-16 will do 95% of my listening, be it in room or not. for those times I'm downstairs working with earmuffs on, I could always swap it out for my other Crown and crank it. The experiment with the Quad was good for me in that it gave me a better idea of what 15 watts on my K402 could do for me. I'd suggest you at least, contemplate an OTL amp and if possible, give one a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 I am intriged by the Viva which could- as it appears -be used initally as a stand alone unit without a preamp leaving my Mac stuff alone for when it's time to crank it up. Certainly the Viva could lend itself to other uses in Bi amp applications as my taste- expertise- and wallet(hopefully) changes. I typically listen to my Mac SS 2105-105WPC at 10:00 on the L/R gain with the preamp set at 11:00 all of the time in a 14 x 25 room. The meters on the amp barely move if at all.So- at wattage point- in general terms - will I see a deficit from what i would be accoustomed to in terms of volume with my solid state stuff. in other words - should i set my sights at a minimum of say 6 WPC or 15 WPC or 30WPC?? I am looking for a general opinion here not a scientific conclusion. I listened to a new set of K horns with a MAC 220/MAC 275 on a rega TT with some high cartridge and it had the Spooky character you speak of - in my mind- however- I am blown away by the SS MAC combo with a cd thru my K horns- so my expectations may not be up to par with you guys who have listened to 500 different high end combos. I am trying to keep the cost somewhat reasonable until I can see how far I want to go with this . I would assume from the posts that the peach preamp would be the minimun acceptable level of tube preamp fore this type of setup. This is great feedback and I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 A friend of mine who has a tube premap (VTL) and tube monoblocks (300 wpc VTL's) is selling his tube preamp because he just bought a Musical Fidelity A308CR SS preamp after I lent him mine for a while. He said (and I definately agree) that the A308CR Solid State maintains great imaging but is smoother on top (i.e. more "tubelike") than his tube preamp. Kevin Deal told me to get the A308CR a few years a go telling me that it is perfect for guys that like the tube sound but no tube issues. I heard a $100,000 tube system last month (another system using VTL's but with Wilson MAXX2's). It was a great sounding system by any measure, but had a raw sound to it (the Wilson sound) and not at all what you would describe as "tubelike" even when using the TT as a source. My entirely SS system (except for a JM Tercel phono pre) sounds much warmer (not claiming better, just warmer). Moral, not all tube systems have a tube sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 In a tube and SS mix, it is usually the preamp which brings more tube flavor to the table. So the conventional wisdom would be to use a tube pre and SS power amp. Of course, the units still need to complement each other well. I agree 100% Nothing scientific here or objective, but I tried (two times) two ss pre's with two Push/pull tube amps and hated it, both times. Im not sure if it was an impedance mismatch or what. The opposite, for me, occured with the Tube pre and SS amps, every time. The amp adds a little signature and the pre-a lot of signature. Most people that I've discussed this with agree that it's about a 70/30 sound signature split between a pre and an amp. No offense to those in the other crowd: so don't hate on me... Ask Mark Deneen, there's probably a reason he made pre-amps before his amps, but that could be speculation, as well. And if you have a variable out on your CD player: hook it up straight to your amp. It'll make you wonder, a bit. At times, this sounded the best to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 In a tube and SS mix, it is usually the preamp which brings more tube flavor to the table. So the conventional wisdom would be to use a tube pre and SS power amp. Of course, the units still need to complement each other well. I agree 100% Nothing scientific here or objective, but I tried (two times) two ss pre's with two Push/pull tube amps and hated it, both times. Im not sure if it was an impedance mismatch or what. The opposite, for me, occured with the Tube pre and SS amps, every time. The amp adds a little signature and the pre-a lot of signature. Most people that I've discussed this with agree that it's about a 70/30 sound signature split between a pre and an amp. No offense to those in the other crowd: so don't hate on me... Ask Mark Deneen, there's probably a reason he made pre-amps before his amps, but that could be speculation, as well. And if you have a variable out on your CD player: hook it up straight to your amp. It'll make you wonder, a bit. At times, this sounded the best to me. Bingo. Totally agree with Daddy and BS. I have run plenty of SS pre/ tube amp combos and did not like one of them. Tube pre and ss amp - ahhhh......different story. In fact, even though I run all tubes in the rear, my morphed pseudo-Khorns get the tube pre/SS amp treatment. Carl. P.S. Also agree that CDP straight into an amp can be a special thing. That's my outdoor system, which rotates speakers between Klipsch and JBL. Source is 80s CD player (would you believe Radio Shack) directly to Trends chip amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Regardless of the tube pre giving you the tonal character, you often find the tube pre out is looking for a higher input impedance than most SS amps provide (especially the pro models). I used a SS pre with my Dynaco for a number of years, and it always worked out great. Plus, the tube amp always worked,when several SS amps did not. Since I am currently all tube, I guess it doesn't matter much. [*-)] Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 The one that struck me as sounding the most SPOOKY good was a Transcendent Sound single ended OTL amp (SE-OTL) Well, now, that's interesting! I got along for many years with a variety of SS and tube preamps, driving a pair of SS Class A amplifier monoblocs (Mark Levinson ML-2's, a very pure sound). However, I finally got tired of the SS (the amps may have needed a going over, but I didn't do it), so I tried a C-J tube powerhouse. I couldn't live with the noise level (too much gain), but heard a real penetration into musical reality on louder passages. That hooked me for a tube amp.Anyway, after looking into various ideas, I, too, ended up with a pair of OTL monoblocs, and the transparency is exceptional. OTL's are not noise- or trouble-free, though, not to mention sometimes very expensive, so be careful what you wish for. Maybe it's the coincidence of both of us switching to OTL amps, but it's interesting that we're both impressed with tube amps, of the OTL persuasion. To me, this raises a question of whether the most recent change shapes one's thinking -- is one more impressed with a tube amp if that's the most recent thing you got? Or is OTL transparency, in our cases? P.S. I'm all-tube now, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Larry- what amp in the Avatar Pic?? I listemed to a Mac 275/ mac c29 SS pre today at length. jolida and mac CD players/ Cornwalls- To me it sounds right on par/better with the 220/275 combo at the mac store.- (New mac Cd and b&Ws- speakers being a negative) So go figure. We ran all types of music at all different volumes. I will reserve judgement until I can check some of the OTL and specailty tube setups. My thinking is to retain my SS setup-MAc stuff- for CDs and go all tubes for TT/vinyl and switch banana plugs back and forth between- using the the k horns for both. Any second or third opinions on the Vivva or the Quads mentioned earlier?? There is a local guy in town that can allegedly work on anything inculding the obsure tube stuff. He comes highly reccomended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Larry- what amp in the Avatar Pic?? Joule Electra VZN-100, 100 watt Class A OTL monobloc. The manufacturer says it's an SET. There is a local guy in town that can allegedly work on anything inculding the obsure tube stuff. He comes highly reccomended.Where are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Chrarlotte NC- A friend of mine has a bunch of old Linn and Naim stuff. He is over there all of the time doing something. He is the go to guy around here for stuff that nobody else will touch. Iwas kicking around the possibility of several amps on the garage. He had knowledge of the Viva and was able to add to the conversation. I have the room torn apart today installing some Lascalas, As soon as I get this mess organized i will find his number and send it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Slight hijack here,winchester21, sorry I missed you guys. Now that you have the Jolida CD on the way do you still want to play with the Meridian DAC. No problem, happy to send it along, just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hi Mike- no problem-I guess the jolida makes the DAC a moot point at present. Sorry that you could not make it . Lots of good tunes- cigars and a great sip of scotch. If you could mail me whatever original paperwork you have on the Mac- I would appreciate it. Cb still wants to have a get together. Let's talk about it. Look foward to talking to you about the Tercel- Peach- turntable stuff. Also I bought one of the meters so that base is covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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