Interconnect Myth Busted

Jeff Matthews · July 25, 2010

My albeit possibly flawed impression lead me to reiterate my advice to not waste your money on cable or wire. It’s a fools game.

So some well off dude buys a pair of audio Note mono block tube amps for 250K, along with a pair of Audio Note speakers for 125K. All hand wired amplifiers, silver caps, transformers wound with silver, tantalum resistors,
I've bent over for Kondo San, blah, blah, blah...

Now your saying this guy should just roll down to Home Depot and buy a cheap spool of 16 AWG wire to hook up his fancy AN crap?

I think the point I'm trying to make is when you start getting into the high dollar audio gear, you have to pay some sort of attention to cable and wire.

Yeah. If you're dumb enough to believe the amp and speakers are worth that, you need to stay consistently dumb as to speaker wire, too.

mike stehr · July 25, 2010

Exactly...

SWL · July 25, 2010

...exactly.

Mallette · July 25, 2010

I have no reason to doubt your account in any way. I wasn't there.

Thanks for the tolerance, Mark.

And if you had been, your milage might well have been different. I don't think I've had a top tier engineer like yourself in any of these events, though some pretty good tinkerers.

That is what the famous Edgar Villchur test showed when people in Boston Symphony Hall could not detect the switch from the live quartet on stage and his AR-3 speakers.

Well. I wasn't impressed with Herr Villchur's speakers even at the time. I WAS impressed that he either invented, or at least popularized, the acoustic suspension method of getting reasonable...and I repeat reasonable...fidelity from a small box. Thankfully, Jack Frazier and others found better ways to do this. Frankly, I think you could repeat his test with just about any half decent speaker as I fully understand what you are saying about the soundfield.

And listening to sound in these systems is fun. But as an engineer and adherent to the science, I simply have to laugh at the idea of various sized speaker pistons piled high in wooden boxes trying to immitate the accoustics of a simple vibrating string in 3D space. I hope someone will explain the physics of how that works.

And, as a scientist and engineer never satisfied, I'd be pretty disappointed if you didn't feel that way. Most of the greatest conductors, if asked by a trusted friend or confidant, would say thier orchestras sounded like unmitigated hippo farts. That's how they became great conductors. Before leaving Dallas 5 years ago I had a stable of fine ensembles to record that included the Dallas Camerata, the Hubbard Chamber Music Ensemble, The Movable Feast (Choral), and a number of other artists. I entered into each and every recording with fear, trembling, and a sense that I was quite naked and ignorant. Only a couple of these efforts, the aforementioned piano being one, turned out well enough to where I felt there was little to be done technically to improve them.

I still feel that the principle remaining problem of audio engineering is the extremely limited ability of 2 channels to reproduce a space/time acoustic event. I find it odd that so many in these pages fight surround, given they live in a world where the only time they are not listening to surround is when they are listening to their stereos. To get to the point, I believe it's quite possible to routinely create an acoustic hologram so real as to completely fool the individual with their eyes open or closed, stoned or straight. This is another thing I actually accomplished using SoundCube and sound recorded in the same space as it was played back in. Without going into the entire thing, let's just say that each and every individual I placed in the sound field dutifully stared at the front door when they heard the sound of it opening...and several got up, approached it, opened it and looked around in complete puzzlement.

The end product of my research was this statement: Successful reproduction of an acoustic space/time event requires that the playback chain be as close to the inverse of the recording chain as possible. That's my story and I'm stickn' to it..

Dave

NOSValves · July 25, 2010

I see absolutely no reason or purpose for that kind of comment. For roughly 200 posts people have stayed with the subject matter, and not made any personal insults to other posters until now.

I guess all that's remaining in this thread now is to give out the Godwin Award.

Well you may not see the reason and I don't find that surprising.... but I bet a good number of long time posters/readers of this forum that pay attention around here do.....

Mallette · July 25, 2010

I have around 2500 albums and CDs and I have had exactly 1 discussion with 1 artist about his intent - and he never mentioned what kind of stereo his composition should be played on.

Musicians can and do make art - and it floats up into the atmosphere like smoke and is gone forever mere moments after it is created.

Hmm...after your response to Craig I had to go back and see what it was about. I hadn't really read the above in detail. Certainly shines light on your attitude towards record engineering. The second statement clearly suggest any such attempt is futile and we shouldn't bother. If you don't mind, I'll pursue my fantasy of perfecting a form of stasis for acoustic space/time events in spite of it being a complete waste of time.

Since talk is cheap and it's unlikely science is going to quit spending time trying to develop Cheetos with an eternal shelf life and improved ring tones instead of something useful like extending human life so I can do this, I'll state something I'll never get to prove: If I had another 20 years I'd absolutely prove you wrong and perfectly recreate an acoustic time/space event so perfectly seat belts would be recommended to keep those experiencing it for the first time from hurting themselves.

I know what needs to be done, I simply do not have the life time left or the resources to pursue it.

Of course, the above is simply the absurd claim of a disgruntled Chesky wannabe, but it's my honest belief.

One supporting story. Actually, you've heard this recording...Peasant. AAMOF, I still have 100 copies of the CD bearing the Juicy Music logo that didn't get to you. Hope you don't mind me giving them away...

Anyway, I made that recording at 24/88.2. When the producer, Michele MacDonald, came over to audit and choose tracks, she sat for a long time before ever saying anything. Now, Michele is not a Callas or Bernstein who'd been recorded by the best hundreds of times, but she was pretty eminent in music circles and had considerable experience. She finally asked me to pause, then looked at me and said "Wow. Wow. Wow. I've never heard myself before. I need work and that piano does too..."

Simple stereo and, as such, a very incomplete record. However, it worked pretty well for her. I had a pretty similar experience with the late James Rives-Jones, conductor of Dallas Camerata.

Again, let me state I'm not bragging. Having invested probably 20k over the years in building various iterations of digital recorders, collecting ribbon mikes, and other stuff and getting a return of perhaps 800.00 back isn't anything to brag about. I didn't do it for those reasons. I did it, and still will if I have the chance, because I cannot accept that the life work of these great people dies with them or that like me and them as well "...it floats up into the atmosphere like smoke and is gone forever mere moments after it is created."

Yes, I'm fighting death. Futile? Perhaps, but very human.

Dave

thebes · July 25, 2010

Fearing being exiled to the Bose Forum I have devoted several hours this weekend to extensive testing and
will now share my results.

I am surprised you went through all that. Had you simply asked me, I could have told you that would happen and spared you all the trouble.

Just because people like to stimulate their minds with debates over nonsense like this doesn't mean you should take any of it seriously. Seriously..... it's a joke. The joke's on you for allowing yourself to get puppeted into wasting your time. But at least you're smart enough not to have wasted any money.

Speaker wire is a lot like politics. It's all full of B.S., but there are many out there who take it seriously anyway.

Well according to others it's all part of my journey towards self-fulfillment, or something like that. Besides, who amongst us has ever hooked up jumper cables to their system? Like my $50 Marantz 8b, it's another Forum first. Gladly brought to you by Thebes-O-Rama Enterprises and I have proof:

NOSValves · July 25, 2010

I have around 2500 albums and CDs and I have had exactly 1 discussion with 1 artist about his intent - and he never mentioned what kind of stereo his composition should be played on.

Musicians can and do make art - and it floats up into the atmosphere like smoke and is gone forever mere moments after it is created.

Hmm...after your response to Craig I had to go back and see what it was about. I hadn't really read the above in detail. Certainly shines light on your attitude towards record engineering. The second statement clearly suggest any such attempt is futile and we shouldn't bother. If you don't mind, I'll pursue my fantasy of perfecting a form of stasis for acoustic space/time events in spite of it being a complete waste of time.

Since talk is cheap and it's unlikely science is going to quit spending time trying to develop Cheetos with an eternal shelf life and improved ring tones instead of something useful like extending human life so I can do this, I'll state something I'll never get to prove: If I had another 20 years I'd absolutely prove you wrong and perfectly recreate an acoustic time/space event so perfectly seat belts would be recommended to keep those experiencing it for the first time from hurting themselves.

I know what needs to be done, I simply do not have the life time left or the resources to pursue it.

Of course, the above is simply the absurd claim of a disgruntled Chesky wannabe, but it's my honest belief.

One supporting story. Actually, you've heard this recording...Peasant. AAMOF, I still have 100 copies of the CD bearing the Juicy Music logo that didn't get to you. Hope you don't mind me giving them away...

Anyway, I made that recording at 24/88.2. When the producer, Michele MacDonald, came over to audit and choose tracks, she sat for a long time before ever saying anything. Now, Michele is not a Callas or Bernstein who'd been recorded by the best hundreds of times, but she was pretty eminent in music circles and had considerable experience. She finally asked me to pause, then looked at me and said "Wow. Wow. Wow. I've never heard myself before. I need work and that piano does too..."

Simple stereo and, as such, a very incomplete record. However, it worked pretty well for her. I had a pretty similar experience with the late James Rives-Jones, conductor of Dallas Camerata.

Again, let me state I'm not bragging. Having invested probably 20k over the years in building various iterations of digital recorders, collecting ribbon mikes, and other stuff and getting a return of perhaps 800.00 back isn't anything to brag about. I didn't do it for those reasons. I did it, and still will if I have the chance, because I cannot accept that the life work of these great people dies with them or that like me and them as well "...it floats up into the atmosphere like smoke and is gone forever mere moments after it is created."

Yes, I'm fighting death. Futile? Perhaps, but very human.

Dave

Dave not sure what happened but those quotes are not accurate I didn't post that Mark did.

Mallette · July 25, 2010

I don't know for sure what you are talking about vis a vis those quotes above. I said that music is made and then floats into the air like smoke, not NOSVALVES, FWIW.

I knew that. I just didn't pay attention to the method of quoting I used. Sorry about that. I'd certainly concur the inability of any level of audio recording to reproduce the situation you described, but such thing are outside my recording interests anyway. The events I prefer are pure art, no interaction from the audience. In many cases, I find the recording far more satisfying than the actual event. I need not fear a sudden heart attack of some audience member, untimely fart or cough, or the crash of the connection from the swell panel suddenly parting in the middle of a Franck chorale (had that happen once). Granted, I know precisely when the guy on the fourth row back convulsed in a cough, etc, but it's still very nice to be able to fully immerse myself in the performance without worrying about such things...or whether I, myself, might suddenly let a big one go between the dieing notes of "Claire de lune."

END NOTE: Since we have now reached the portion of the thread where people start slinging personal insults, and all the humor is lost, I'll make that the last of my comments in this thread. As always, fun yakking with ya.

I suppose I wasted my effort since you've decided to bow out. I respect that. Done it myself more than once. However, in this case I'm not seeing the provocation and you aren't usually so thin skinned...or perhaps I don't know the context. In any event, see you on the bitstream.

Dave

Mallette · July 25, 2010

Dave not sure what happened but those quotes are not accurate I didn't post that Mark did.

Once again MEA CULPA, DAMMIT!

I knew who said what, but quoted from Craig's response...creating the current confusion. I'll see if I can fix it.

Dave

NOSValves · July 25, 2010

I see absolutely no reason or purpose for that kind of comment. For roughly 200 posts people have stayed with the subject matter, and not made any personal insults to other posters until now.

I guess all that's remaining in this thread now is to give out the Godwin Award.

Well you may not see the reason and I don't find that surprising.... but I bet a good number of long time posters/readers of this forum that pay attention around here do.....

Could be. But those who posted here didn't feel any need to sling personal insults at me. At least those who posted know it's simply an amusing passtime to chat about this stuff, and have no inherent compulsion to insult me personally or anyone else. I think everyone had a good laugh. I guess if all those people out there feel as you say, they must be afraid to post it? And, just as well....

Mark,

I did not out and out insult you I simply stated the obvious... not all that long ago you would not of stated the things you stated in this thread... The writings and slogans all over your website not all that long ago sung a completely different tune. You yet again have taken a 360 degree flip. I've now witnessed it with amazement no less then 3 times in the some 10 years I've been on this forum.

It must be a California thing.

Mallette · July 25, 2010

Better? This is what I intended...