why modify klipsch

[chambers1517]

I know there are a lot of tweakers in the audio world. People make claims about cables and all sorts of tweaks making differences. I have always wondered about the claims about modded khorns and lascalas. I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be. I wondered how someone with way less resources than klipsch could do a better job than the people who designed the speaker to begin with. I think they can't. I heard a set of moded lascalas for the first time and my impression is no thanks. I think klipsch did just fine.

[willland]

Chambers1517,

I understand your point and in theory, it is very valid. Remember one thing(over used cliche' coming up, but true), it is our own ears we have to satisfy. Many times the "mods" that Klipsch owners speak of are really "updates". As you know, many of us have speakers that were mfr'd in the 70's and 80's and in that 25++ years capacitors and other components deteriorate over time. Some of the exact parts may not be readily available so some of us "upgrade" to better quality components.

I also think that some here want to have a sense of uniqueness so they build a better(modified) Khorn, La Scala, Cornwall, etc.

I think klipsch did just fine.

I think the overall consensus would totally agree with this statement.

Bill

[Deang]

I've heard modified Klipsch speakers that I didn't care for either. I've also heard modified Klipsch speakers that blew me away. There are a lot of different ways to mod a speaker, and of course the quality of the downstream components and room are factors in the end result as well.

[Guest " "]

your are right, its basically a left brain vs right brain thing. right brained folks enjoy the music, left brain folks have to understand the behind the scenes stuff. i'm a left brain person. I can't go on a ferris wheel with out checking every bolt in my view to make sure it has a cotter pin. Right brain folks just hop on and have fun. left brain folks like to dig ditches. right brain folks like to drink beer, listen to music, chat with pretty girls, while watching the left brain folks dig ditches.

[Coytee]

I have always wondered about the claims about modded khorns and lascalas. I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be

Hey Dale,

Good to see you a little more active!

You are welcome to come over anytime and we'll do a side by side (can do outdoors when it warms up or in my messy basement).

We can take a 1979 3-way LaScala, stock drivers/horns with some of Al K's extreme slope crossovers and compare it next to a JubeScala which is a 2-way LaScala using the K402 that you saw on the Jubilee's. I do not have a K510.

I'm cheating a bit per your comments as this (JubeScala) is a 100% Klipsch engineered solution, tested/verified in their chamber.

The main point however is that the LaScala can indeed be improved upon and in this format maintain 100% Klipsch engieering.

I must say though, after I had the Jubilee's for a while, I was over at a friends house who had Khorns. He turned them up fairly loud and although it could have been 99% the problem of the room, it finally clicked in my ears what some might mean when they say the sound got congested.

After hearing some larger format horns I can see where some of these upgrades might indeed be an upgrade over stock. My understanding is Klipsch (corporate) has made a conscious decision/effort to leave the Heritage line as PWK left it (?). If that's true then it suggests they won't ever slap a K510 inside the top of a LaScala II and make them 2-way from the factory. I personally think that would be a wonderful option. Make it an option.

[russ69]

I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be.

Engineering labor cost and budget constraints. The hobbyist can put unlimited time and money into the changes, the factory designer cannot.

[Chris A]

Peace and good will to all...even our tinkerers...[]

Chris

[Islander]

I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be.

Engineering labor cost and budget constraints. The hobbyist can put unlimited time and money into the changes, the factory designer cannot.

Exactly right. The manufacturer could make the "ultimate" speaker, but its high price would mean they'd sell very few units, so the company would not see economies of scale, so the price would have to stay high. It's a risky business model.

Many companies do make very high quality speakers, but it's the less expensive models that keep the company in business and help pay for the R&D for the top-end models. Ideally, what's learned in the process trickles down to the bread-and-butter models, which benefits everyone.

Also, with the Jubilee and JubScala being designed to be bi-amped and requiring the buyer to supply an electronic (or sometimes passive) crossover, they get into a level of expense and complexity that does not appeal to the majority of buyers.

It's great that Klipsch does help out the more dedicated enthusiasts who are willing to put up with non-plug-and-play setups in order to get even better sound than with stock Klipsch speakers.

[WMcD]

Well, it is just "ignorant" (in the argot of the South) to think that home builders can not improve on Klipsch speakers. There is a strong analogy to automobiles.

The Klipschorn is basically a 1940's design based on 1930's knowledge. There is room for tremendous improvement which the manufacturer has ignored.

Take a 1932 Ford for example.

In their day, they had what was then respectable horsepower, tires, and passenger accomodations.

None the less, technology has improved. Induction techology has improved as has exhaust technology. The ancient flat-head Ford V-8 with side valves was a marvel of its day but that is ancient technology. Cooling has improved with bigger radiators appropriate to the increase in technology. The small tires and wheels were made for un-improved roads and could never keep pace with modern wheels and tires.

Passenger accomodations in those days were cramped, at best. Bigger chassis allowed for more occupants with better seat cushioning. It is also possible to have a protective cabin in bad weather and open seating when needed.

It is a dang shame that Ford and Klipsch have failed to put into production the obvious improvements which have been implemented by technologically sophisticated home builders.

WMcD.

[WMcD]

Whoops,

I neglected to include an example of how a 1932 Ford has been improved. Improvements to Klipschorns by hot rodders are like this.

[djk]

PWK designed his first speakers without even having a microphone!

He had to choose between buying a signal generator or a microphone, and the generator won.

While I greatly respect PWK, last time I checked he was still dead, and he never walked across my swimming pool.

[Don Richard]

PWK designed his first speakers without even having a microphone!

He had to choose between buying a signal generator or a microphone, and the generator won.

Albert Einstein developed his theories of relativity in the early 1900s without the use of laboratories, cloud chambers, or even a computer. To this day his theories are being confirmed as new technology is developed that enables us to verify those theories as fact. It is interesting that PWK not only didn't use spectrum analyzers and time delay spectrometry in his early efforts, but not even a microphone.

[jtnfoley]

I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be.

Engineering labor cost and budget constraints. The hobbyist can put unlimited time and money into the changes, the factory designer cannot.

Exactly right. The manufacturer could make the "ultimate" speaker, but its high price would mean they'd sell very few units, so the company would not see economies of scale, so the price would have to stay high. It's a risky business model.

Many companies do make very high quality speakers, but it's the less expensive models that keep the company in business and help pay for the R&D for the top-end models. Ideally, what's learned in the process trickles down to the bread-and-butter models, which benefits everyone.

(emphasis mine.) In the car biz we call this "stuffing three Escorts into the trunk of every Lincoln."

Also, with the Jubilee and JubScala being designed to be bi-amped and requiring the buyer to supply an electronic (or sometimes passive) crossover, they get into a level of expense and complexity that does not appeal to the majority of buyers.

It's great that Klipsch does help out the more dedicated enthusiasts who are willing to put up with non-plug-and-play setups in order to get even better sound than with stock Klipsch speakers.

Another notable quote, from engineering school IIRC, is "perfect is the enemy of good enough." That is, the perfect product will never be shipped, and it's hard to pay the bills that way.

[djk]

" It is interesting that PWK not only didn't use spectrum analyzers and
time delay spectrometry in his early efforts, but not even a microphone."

PWK rightly argued that all the micropones available to him at the time had known pressure defects (response), and that he could hear the peaks and hollows (in a speaker system).

I own a couple of those new-fangled spectrum analyzers (and their calibrated mics) and they do save some time in getting the response into the ballpark. The last dB or so I always tune while listening to music, it can make a very large difference in how the speaker sounds (on music).

[chambers1517]

Have these improvement ever been tested. I really don't know and am wondering. My only concern is people who change things for the sake of change, never measure the results and claim the great improvements. I know Klipsch has improved on the older designs as time went by. The Khorn crossovers have been updated over the years.

[PrestonTom]

"Why?"

Well, can you name a single car that you could not put a better set of shocks and tires on?

I did not say: 1) the shocks and tires were the weakest link in the system, 2) that the choice one might make would necessarily be better, 3) the performance increment would not be small, 4) that the user was especially interested in better tires and shocks.

[WMcD]

I hope you folk realize that I'm kidding you a bit.

Smile,

Wm Gil McD

[djk]

"Have these improvement ever been tested"

A lot of the guys here at this forum have way better test equipment than PWK did for the first 50 years of his audio design work.

[Sandy West]

I think your basic question is a valid one. Any product can potentially be improved, but I wonder how many users have the technical expertise to change (in a positive way) a highly researched and developed product like modern Klipsch loudspeakers. My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

[pzannucci]

I think your basic question is a valid one. Any product can potentially be improved, but I wonder how many users have the technical expertise to change (in a positive way) a highly researched and developed product like modern Klipsch loudspeakers. My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

You can decide if you want to buy into any of the hype that folks sell on this and any other board. Seeing Al K's horn measurements and other work board members do does give food for thought.

I have modified most of my Klipsch speakers over the years, from KHorns and Heresys to more modern KLF-30s and RB5s. There were reasons for doing each of the mods as there are attributes I didn't like about the original product. The Kiipsch products are an excellent base to start with and after a long period of listening and you find out there are attributes you don't like, why not modify them? In the end, the positive change only needs to be for you.

There are a lot of folks that think Heresy I is a great speaker stock. Some call it crispness but I find the tweeter blaring annoying. I am one that likes a slight tail off of the speakers output above 4K. So for speakers like these and based on their positioning, I would modify the crossover to suit my enjoyment.

As stated earlier, a lot of things are not feasible during manufacture due to cost constraints. Nothing is stopping you from doing changes later. Imagine this one - http://www.google.com/patents?id=aoUgAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false